Did you see it coming?

Discussion in 'Dog Chat' started by ouesi, Apr 18, 2017.


  1. ouesi

    ouesi Wag More Bark Less

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    (Don't watch if you're upset by a dog squabble.)



    This video is making the rounds, apparently happened last weekend at a pet expo.
    It's interesting to me the comments, some people appalled at the handler kicking the dog, others appalled at the GSD starting a fight, very, very few people mentioning that the BC's behavior prior to even being left at the stay. To me that handler dropped the ball big time. Had no business leaving his dog.

    I'm also frankly surprised at the judge and stewards. Usually judges intervene when you can tell one dog is not only not on task in a way that's going to cause a scuffle. And BTW the one dog who held the stay FTW!!!

    My Bates would have reacted exactly like that GSD. He has surprised me in in the past by not taking the bait, but I would not count on it. If I were in that position, I would have excused myself and my dog - and have. No ribbon or title is worth that kind of bad experience for my dog or another dog.
     
  2. shadowmare

    shadowmare The dog doesn't bite, me on the other hand...

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    Right from the first seconds you could see that the BC was not focusing on the task at hand and was more interested in the dog next to him. I see it every day with Axel when we're not in our "comfort zone". The difference is that Axel is looking for a game and if the other dog didn't even glance at him, he would lose interest too. So really I've been on both ends - my dog keeps looking for attention and then the other dog comes over, or my dog is fairly focused on me, but when he notices some dog "inviting" him he is off. I'm not sure it's clear enough whether it was a squabble right from the start or one of the dogs was in a playful mood and it escalated? everything was going on out of the camera frame. When they came back into view they were obviously squabbling.
    Definitely saw the two dogs breaking their stay eventually though :rolleyes:
     
  3. labradrk

    labradrk PetForums VIP

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    Saw this online last night......good lord!!

    BC is giving major eye to the GSD and the handler should have removed it from the ring at that point. GSD notices BC who is presumably still eyeballing it as handler walks away but we can't see, GSD presumably breaks it's stay first but again we don't see the BC. I think the GSD handler was a bit OTT in kicking the dog, one swift kick to break up the fight fair enough but three seems excessive when his dog was equally involved.

    Preventable......people chasing trophies instead of looking out for their dogs.

    Love the Mal who didn't break it's stay, that takes will power.....
     
  4. shadowmare

    shadowmare The dog doesn't bite, me on the other hand...

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    I may be covered in some rotten tomatoes now, but Lord do I hate the wee ankle biter types who get involved out of the blue and then continue attacking your dog while you're trying to get your dog to safety... meanwhile their owner is nowhere to be found :rolleyes: I had that last year when Axel was attacked by a mastiff. I just managed to pull my dog's head out of the big man's jaws and as me and his owner are pulling dogs apart (whilst both apologisig to each other) some little barking turd runs up and starts attacking Axel's tail and MY ankles :mad: the only reason why I didn't send him flying was that the owner good 30 feet away started calling him over.
     
  5. Sarah1983

    Sarah1983 PetForums VIP

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    Saw that coming a mile off, the collie was fixated and the gsd unhappy even before the handlers left.
     
  6. Lexiedhb

    Lexiedhb Team Ginger!

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    I can't believe the BC handler left it, hard eyeing it's neighbour.
     
  7. DT

    DT PetForums VIP

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    Couldn't actually see the beginning when the GSD first made a move towards the BC
    But my view was, initially the BC was not focused and certainly paying too much attention to the gsd at that time.
     
  8. ouesi

    ouesi Wag More Bark Less

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    There was nothing playful about the way the BC was eyeing the GSD right from the start. He even postured with one foot up at one point, didn't even pause when the handler tugged his collar. Total fixation.

    I wondered too. Again thinking about my dog, it would take a lot for him to take his eyes off me, he tends to watch me like a hawk on stays and if I leave he will watch where I've gone and gets in the zone looking for me. So I'm assuming (yes, total assumption) there was a noise or movement from the BC that caused the GSD to look and then react.

    It's also possible that the GSD just happened to look over and saw the BC eyeballing him and posturing and took offense.

    Either way, the BC should not have been left.
    First the BC handler should have known not to leave his dog. Second, the GSD handler should have noticed the BC's behavior directed at his dog and intervened, and third, the judges and stewards should have noticed and intervened. None of that needed to happen.
     
  9. Dogloverlou

    Dogloverlou PetForums VIP

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    The Collie was 'locked' on to the GSD from the get go - showing no attention to the handler, tense in it's posture and yeah I wouldn't trust a dog who has eyes on my dog to hold it's stay. What's more, you even see it go to move towards the Shepherd before the handler has even left it's side. In that situation, I would have insisted to the examiner/trainer I'm not comfortable leaving my dog and am either willing to wait for some kind of engagement or do a sit/stay on lead. But I can understand the owner perhaps feeling the pressure of the set up as it appears they're doing some kind of demo? and not wanting to let the crowd/other owners down etc and assumedly the dog has a good stay otherwise. But regardless, yes, there was clear signs. The Shepherd only had to look around in it's direction for the Collie to respond and thus that's what happened. The GSD did look to be the one to break it's stay first, but we can't see the Collie on video at that point.

    There is actually a Collie funnily enough in our class at CGC who hates Cash! Like literally eyeballs him as he's passing, growling away under his breath. The other week he was walking around us off lead during an exercise and got all up in Cash's face stiff as a board! It's only because I stuck my knee in between them both things probably didn't escalate, but I'm wary of the dog in class and always working on just making sure Cash does as little as possible to trigger him into beelining us...

    And another Collie at our other club flew at Cash the other week during a search square. The other Collie had already shown clear signs much like the dog in this video. He'd lunged forwards on his lead a few times towards us, and kept eyeballing Cash. We was avoiding them, until the lead was dropped by his owners and he came charging at Cash who I had on a long line and thus Cash took off after the Collie in a very much no nonsense kinda 'knock that crap off right now' manner. Minimum contact made, no fighting etc, but what bugged me even more was that after Cash was grabbed on his line and actively showing avoidance of conflict ( turning his head away from the Collie still charging at him, growling but showing huge restraint ) the bloody Collie was still going at him and the other owners were not quick enough to grab him IMO and had to be grabbed by the trainers. After that I refused to work Cash off lead he entre class which is a shame as it wasn't his fault but I just wanted to avoid the other dog.
     
  10. Sweety

    Sweety PetForums VIP

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    Often, when a fight breaks out between two dogs, other dogs in close proximity will join in, regardless of their size.

    Is it different when it's a small breed?
     
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  11. Leanne77

    Leanne77 PetForums VIP

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    The collie was clearly spoiling for a reaction from the GSD and I think in all honesty, i'd probably kick a dog if it was fighting with mine. I think the GSD should've probably restrained itself a little more instead of seeing the collie and just going straight for it but I agree that the BC shouldn't have been left.
     
  12. Popadilly

    Popadilly PetForums Junior

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    It's amazing how different dogs teach us different things. Before my GSD, I was totally unaware how confrontational eye stalking can be, and how things can escalate. My Lab never seemed to be bothered, but Djambo isn't one for backing down, so I soon learnt to spot it from him and other dogs and quickly diffuse things!
     
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  13. LinznMilly

    LinznMilly Submissive Servant to My Lord and Lady Mutts

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    Like everyone else, I saw it coming from the start. Tbh, if someone was eyeballing me like that, I can't say I'd take it any better than the GSD -never mind the dog.

    BC/GSD shouldn't have been left.
     
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  14. Moobli

    Moobli PetForums VIP

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    Collie is definitely eyeballing the GSD and spoiling for a fight (look at the stare and the raised paw!). I don't blame the GSD owner for not noticing the collie, as he was completely focused on his own dog. The collie owner should have seen the signs that his dog was zoning in on the GSD and not left his dog. As we can't see what happens out of camera view, it is impossible to say whether the collie starts towards the shepherd or whether it is the shepherd who breaks the stay first. I think the GS owner was a bit over-zealous in kicking the collie so many times, but I am not sure any of us can say how we would react when put in such a situation.

    Rather embarrasing and preventable - but hey, they are dogs not robots :D
     
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  15. ouesi

    ouesi Wag More Bark Less

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    That made me laugh :D
     
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  16. ouesi

    ouesi Wag More Bark Less

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    I'm not proud of it, but I've kicked one of my own dogs that hard. Hurt the hell out of my foot too, (I was wearing flip flops). Kept kicking him too 'cause he wouldn't stop. Then I changed tactics and bear hugged him and sort of tacked him to the ground and yelled at the other dog to back off (who fortunately did).
    The kicking was ineffective, the tackling was stupid, but in the end you never know how you're going to react...
     
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  17. Mirandashell

    Mirandashell PetForums VIP

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    I also spotted the BC was looking for a fight as soon as the video started. His owner is not paying attention to his dog. And where was the JR's owner when all that went off?
     
    #17 Mirandashell, Apr 18, 2017
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2017
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  18. Jamesgoeswalkies

    Jamesgoeswalkies PetForums VIP

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    Makes an interesting clip from which to to study canine body language :D

    I actually think there was already history between the GSD and the Collie ... or maybe between the Collie and another dog, judging by the extreme reaction by the GSD's owner (after separating the dogs with a couple of kicks he goes to follow through with another kick to chase it away ..he really didn't like it.).

    As everyone says ..the Collie was zoned out from the start ...quite seriously zoned out ....and his handler should (would) have known that. I suspect the Collie moved first and the GSD responded. Then it kicked off. It was handbags. With the length of time they were grapling and growling there could have been serious damage if damage was intended by either dog. It wasn't. In fact the only damage was probably inflicted by the GSD owner lol

    It's the kind of thing that can kick off at dog shows when dogs that are not comfortable with each other are sat in close proximity. Not sure that Collie has the temperament for such events.

    As for kicking out ...I'm a kicker ...have separated a few fights that way.

    J
     
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  19. applecrumlin

    applecrumlin Oh Help Oh No it's a Gruffalo

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    Just curious, I've never been to a show like that - could a handler avoid standing next to a particular dog, or are you told where to stand in the line, with no choice in the matter? Maybe if these two dogs had been far apart, everything could have passed off peacefully?
     
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  20. Mirandashell

    Mirandashell PetForums VIP

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    I would have thought the judges would have noticed the hard stare so should have seperated the dogs.