Breeding mongrels

Discussion in 'Dog Breeding' started by Old Shep, Sep 8, 2011.


  1. rocco33

    rocco33 PetForums VIP

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    They do breed pedigree dogs. I can't remember exactly, but from memory the ratio is just over 50% pedigree and just under 50% crossbreed. They do breed for temperament and size, but they are able to do this by taking the characteristics and traits of pedigree dogs, both physical and temperament to achieve the dog that they need. They are able to do this BECAUSE of pedigree dogs. Take their most popular cross by far - the labrador x golden. Interestingly, they only breed first crosses - they found they lost the benefits and traits they wanted when they bred crossbreed to crossbreed.
     
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  2. swarthy

    swarthy PetForums VIP

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    You've summed it up beautfully in that sentence - people CONTINUE to overlook the tough job those dogs being shown, worked and doing agility have - they have to love it and they have to have good temperaments.

    A dog going to a CH show will be benched alongside and opposite dogs, it will pass many dogs walking around the showground and in close proximity in the ring - it will have to be handled by a complete stranger and moved to order - it will have often travelled very long distances with early starts and late finishes to get to the show - it will often be handled and approached by random members of the public - and through ALL this - if it's temperament is in any way iffy - it just will not work.

    Open shows will usually have less dogs entered, but the space will also be much smaller and poor temperament dogs are a recipe for disaster.

    The majority of mongrels, and a large proportion of cross-breeds from unethical breeders will have, at best, questionable and unverifiable ancestry.

    In a pedigree dog, if you are of a mind to, assuming they are still living, and within show and working kennels - you can physically meet the dogs, their progeny, their siblings, their parents etc etc - never will you get a wider scope and opportunity to meet so many relatives as within a show setting.

    I've met my youngest girls mother (I bred both), grandmother, great grandmother, father, grandmother and grandfather (sadly no longer with us) by reputation.

    I've met her dad's siblings, her half siblings, her dad's half siblings - I've met some of her dad's other progeny.

    My eldest showgirl, I've met mum, dad, grandads on both sides, and many siblings and half siblings of my girl, her parents and grandparents.

    I've even met FOURTH AND FIFTH generation dogs (sadly no longer with us) in my eldest boys pedigree - and sat cuddling with them on their floor on a cold winters day.

    If anyone asked my advice on getting a show pup, I would advise them to go along to shows, buy themselves a catalogue and familiarise themselves with the dogs and types they liked (and of course their owners and breeders)

    That often offers the opportunity to meet the dogs in the flesh. Similarly if someone wanted a working bred Labrador, I would point them in the direction of people who could advise them properly, and would advise them to do something very similar.

    I know people who have half siblings to my youngest boy, I know his dad and grandfather, I know his mother and her sister, I know his grandfather by reputation (sadly no longer with us) and many other progeny from these dogs.

    ========================

    ANY pet owner can go along to a show, if they buy a catalogue they will often be able to meet parents, grandparents and sometimes even further back - they can meet half siblings from mum and dad and often other relatives that make it into the showring.

    I would DEFY any cross breeder to be able to say the same unless quite frankly they own every single dog in the pedigree and doesn't require hundreds of miles of travelling in order to achieve this goal.
     
  3. Elles

    Elles PetForums VIP

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    Given PDE and other rumours, many of my friends who have dogs got them either from a rescue, or from someone they know breeding cross breeds, or mutts. My best friend has 2 cross bred terriers, she saw mum and dad, had a good idea of what size and type they'd be and bought them. She wouldn't buy a pedigree dog.

    They aren't bothered about what their great, great grandparents were, they're bothered about what they are and a rough idea of what they are likely to be. If they grow a bit bigger, or happen to be a bit smaller, or a bit hairer, or not as hairy as they expect, they don't care.

    They reckon they've got more chance of a friendly, healthy dog, buying pups from a friendly, healthy bitch crossed with a friendly, healthy dog of no particular breed, than they have if they bought a pedigree dog and they don't have to break the bank to buy it. :eek:

    I agreed with them. Avoided pedigree show animals like the plague. I was thinking of buying a golden retriever x collie, seemed the perfect temperament and type cross for me. The other option was a border collie, I wouldn't have looked at golden retrievers. I was in horse breeding mode, knew nothing of ethics or health tests and thought people bred dogs like they did horses and pedigree dogs were a different world for other people, like my mother in law who has toy poodles and a lot of expensive vet bills.

    Eventually I decided that the cross would be difficult to find and iffy health-wise anyway and started to look more at the ethical side of things and chose a working collie. After looking into it more and then joining PetForum I am starting to come around a bit and no longer think pedigree dog breeders are the off-spring of satan. :D

    However, I do still think that out-crossing to type should be practiced more often, the breeds that have trouble breathing and walking should be neutered and not bred any more and that the KC should look into opening stud books to allow careful out-crossing more often, especially when there is a known issue. So there you go. :D
     
  4. swarthy

    swarthy PetForums VIP

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    In many breeds you can outcross within the breed and a lot of breeders do so.

    The reference to grandparents was around the question of knowing the temperament of ancestry withn the dog's breeding - and never more than in showlines is that possible to trace, and trace easily and affordably.

    The breeds you allude to remain in the minority - yet so many people here tar every pedigree breeder with the same brush because of a poor minority - yet good responsible ethical pedigree breeders outnumber good ethical cross-breeders at a ratio that is probably immeasurable (and also produce far less pups) - yet people STILL believe what they want to believe - many ending up buying from BYB and PF and then whinging when the dog has health problems - my own neighbour did it recently with their Springer pup - whinging about the selling prices

    They ended up spending more than double the difference in the price of the two litters at the vets to treat immediate health problems for the sake of trying to save £100 and failing to do any research beforehand :(
     
  5. Elles

    Elles PetForums VIP

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    At least the people I know wouldn't buy a pedigree dog from a puppy mill to save a few quid. They wouldn't buy a pedigree full stop and are far more likely to take a dog from a rescue centre, if they're allowed to, which being working folk, they might not be. :(

    How can you out-cross within a breed? :confused: Crossing a European bred labrador to an American bred labrador?

    I'm confused?
     
  6. swarthy

    swarthy PetForums VIP

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    Unless you are friends with half the dog buying and owning population in the UK, then unfortunately, their take on things will be have minimal impact in the overall dog world - I've spent many hours trying to persuade people I feel unsuitable for a puppy to consider the rescue route, and in the hundreds of people I've spoken to, just one has gone down this route, and then not from rescue, but an older bitch from a responsible breeder - as the saying goes - "You can lead a horse to water .............."

    :eek: if you knew anything about Labradors you would know that many European and American bred dogs come back to English Ancestry within just a few generations - you are quite often likely to find your outcrossing within your own country - but yes, people do import semen from overseas to add to their lines from across the globe - not just America and Europe.

    When you breed pedigrees, you line-breed or you outcross - i.e. no common dogs in 5 generations and often further back - I've got a number of them here.

    Once any cross-breed gets past 1st generation, you have absolutely no idea whatsoever of truly knowing whether you are linebreed or outcrossing - chances are, you are linebreeding far more tightly than from either of the dogs pedigree parents because there will be so few F1 types around - coupled with that, the large majority of crosses are from poorly bred unhealth-tested dogs, hence you further reduce the genepool significantly in one fair swoop.

    The more you cross, unless you are conducting every health-test under the sun (very unusual) - then every time, you are introducing new genes and hence new conditions to the mix - with every possibility of finding matches between the two dogs, many conditions are not unique to one breed.

    ====================================

    If the 'common theory' often spouted on here that all pedigree dogs were once cross-breeds, then the whole canine gene-pool will be inextricably linked - with conditions once present in just one breed could now be in 2 or more.
     
  7. Sparkle

    Sparkle PetForums Senior

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    Chihuahuas were originally bred for companionship that's what their purpose in life is is to be a companion.

    Breeding a mish mash of breeds for a 'mongrel' is just ridiculous all breeds have diff traits you don't know what you're going to get from each breed, health, temperament etc silly idea IMO
     
  8. Elles

    Elles PetForums VIP

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    Ooops, lol, I just chose labrador for my example not literally. I could have said sky blue ginger dogs. :eek:

    In that case I don't mean out-crossing, I mean cross breeding. Bringing in a dog of a similar breed to breed out a health problem.

    In horses there's a genetic problem in quarter horses linked to a well known sire called Impressive. HYPP. Horses bred for the looks for the show ring (halter classes) in America.

    Impressive, an impressive quarter horse

    I would expect that many problems in particular breeds of dog could be linked back in the same way and ethical breeders are trying to breed out the problems through health testing in the same way. :)
     
  9. Old Shep

    Old Shep PetForums VIP

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    I was trying to avoid a pro/against pedigree discussion :(

    I think the answer given a few posts back (sorry, I can't find who said it now. This thread has been more popular than I thought) sums it up nicely. If you breed MAINLY for temprament-like the Russian fox experiment-they would all begin to share other physical traits and what you'd have would be a breed!!

    As far as GDB is concerned, I asked a member of staff at the Forfar centre in Scotland SPECIFICALLY if the dogs in their breeding programmes were registerd with the kennel club and he said no. Perhaps he was wrong or perhaps he misunderstood my question, but he said GDB had no interest in registering pups with the KC and anyway, they would not be able to as the parents are not registered.

    I know nothing of GDB or breeding, so if someone out there knows for a fact that GDB register litters with KC, I'll accept that. ;)
     
  10. rocco33

    rocco33 PetForums VIP

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    The GDB affix is Guidewell. I pulled a random BRS from the bookcase and it shows 12 GDB litters registered under that affix for that quarter.
    PS - I only checked labradors.

    PPS - I'm can't see that it's turned into a pro/against pedigree discussion.
     
  11. Old Shep

    Old Shep PetForums VIP

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    Thanks for clearing that up, rocco!
     
  12. Blitz

    Blitz PetForums VIP

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    Even if they are not registered they are still pure bred - a bit of paper would not alter that. My sister has a guide dog which is pure GSD. There are three pure labs living locally. I imagine the golden cross lab is the only common cross that guide dogs do and they are so similar in so many ways that it would hardly be counted as producing mongrels. they also tried labrador/standard poodle cross but I understand that they were not getting the dogs they need so will use a standard poodle for allergic people rather than trying to produce a non allergic lab cross.
     
  13. swarthy

    swarthy PetForums VIP

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    Just picked a couple of random BRS up here as well which happened to be under my seat.

    One quarter - one litter of Labs and one litter of Goldies registered

    The other 4 litters of Goldies and 7 Litters of Labs

    They also use showbred dogs in their lines - as above, a number of their dogs share one of my girls grand-dads.

    They've been going it a while - I've got dogs going back to the early 1980's in my database and some I don't have full pedigrees for (suggesting late 1970s)
     
  14. cinnamontoast

    cinnamontoast Really? You have NO idea about me.

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    I had an extremely well bred Keeshond as a child. His sire was BOB at Crufts. The breeder knew we weren't going to show, he would purely be a pet. He was chosen for his temperament.

    My older Springer was chosen for his looks/conformation/movement (not by me).

    My current youngsters were chosen for their temperaments.

    So breeders do breed for the pet market and surely any decent breeder would refrain from breeding from a nasty dog?

    The original question, why don't we just breed mongrels for their temperament:
    a) you cannot guarantee temperament in a mongrel because you can't guarantee which traits will dominate
    b) look at how many mongrels (crosses) are in the rescue centres. It's a fact that the majority of people will still look for a recognisable breed/pedigree.
     
  15. comfortcreature

    comfortcreature PetForums VIP

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    We dont' breed for the pet market mostly because that idea has been discouraged by those interested in ending the breeding of any dogs - AR -. The first toehold in is to discourage pet market breeding. :)

    There are a LOT of lies spread - including that of pet overpopulation - in order to achieve that goal. My sister was on the ground floor with PETA when it started in the early 80s. I have face to face met many of the fanatics involved and know the extremes in which they are willing to go.

    http://petdefense.wordpress.com/most-common-ar-mantras-used/

    Keep in mind that in North America the pet market breeding of mutts has a much larger tradition than in Europe and the U.K., so it was the first target. Don't think those in AR are not targetting all breeders though, as they are.


    Breeder Bashing: A National Pasttime - http://endangeredowner.blogspot.com/2011/02/breeder-bashing-national-pasttime.html

    . . .We're damned if we do and damned if we don't.

    Remember that saying about glass houses and stones.....

    Before all you "breeding experts" run off to educate the public on what a "good" breeder is, don't do the rest of us any favors by preaching what your "beliefs" are as being "my way or it's wrong".

    We dog breeders seem to forget that WE created the anti-breeder sentiment in this country by bashing those that we didn't agree with or by bashing those that did things differently than us. And look where we are now....the animal rights terrorists and the bunny-hugger followers have taken our "ideas" and are introducing them as legislation faster than a dandelion growing in summertime. Yes, WE DID THIS TO OURSELVES. . . . .

    In the breeds with a large population base this can be done. It should be acknowledged, however, that there are a good number of breeds where the populations have gotten so tight that outcrossing within the breed is near impossible.

    Swarthy I believe that in the UK and many European countries this can be the case (although I know many times it is not as well).

    Have you put any thought into how this works in the pedigree world in North America?

    I ask because I have put thoght this way. . . . and this topic has even been discussed on breeders lists that I am on. The big difference in North America is that because of the vast distances here that have to be travelled many, many breeders (most) will never have their hands on or observe closely any more than a few of the dogs in the background pedigree of their dogs.

    Please just keep in mind that the situation of whether dogs in backgrounds of pedigrees can be/or are known differs vastly dependent upon where one lives.

    I think that is a reflexive defensive reaction as I rarely (if ever) have read a post or a position where 'every' pedigree breeder is tarred with the same brush. Rare as hen's teeth I would say, but mentioned ALL the time by those that feel they are being persecuted. It should be O.K. to discuss the weaknesses within the system of pedigree breeding without being accused of 'tarring all'.

    I've had it accused of posts that I have made, and I am very careful in my wording NOT to tar all pedigree breeders the same . . . . yet the same defensive reaction occurs. I don't quite understand it.

    . . . and you see, here we would disagree. This would most likely be because of the breeds that I have been involved in (companion breeds) and because I am located on a different continent where more here that push pedigree breeds do so as a business venture and where that venture has very much permeated the very small show culture that we have.

    When I can go through the OFA database and find only 25 health tested Pekingese dogs . . . . when it takes me seven years to find a SINGLE Cavalier breeder following health protocols . . . . . when I have had a good look at American Cocker Spaniel breeders, and Tibetan Spaniel breeders, and Papillon breeders and have come up with the same throughout . . . . then I know that I can confidently say that pedigree breeders and cross breeders rank about the same in my eyes . . . . with only a very tiny minority truly above the others in ethical practices from both categories. Most are just mediocre (some more mediocre than others).

    Please don't mistake this for meaning that I believe there is only room for supporting those at the very top . . . . as that is NOT what I am saying. (I believe that is dangerous thinking actually).

    Pekingese stats on OFA: Orthopedic Foundation for Animals

    I might be reflecting that our culture is different. Showing dogs is not a family event here that people spend weekend time at. Many don't know there are such things. Going to a dog show or participating in dog sports is not something your average dog owner has ever even heard of or thought about doing.

    If the case is that it is cultural then my post applies to those from the large rural areas of Canada and North America with this culture. It is fine by me if that is all that I post for.

    The last thing I want to see is more people I know duped into believing the commercial kennels that sell registered Cavaliers and Yorkies and Papillons and Cockers and Shih Tzus by the dozens here are not offering a more 'ethical' choice than the neighbor selling mutts through the paper.

    I don't even want them to believe that the kind and caring Cavalier breeder that has never had a dog to a cardiologist (there are only six in Canada) and has not heard of age protocols is more ethical than the kind and caring mutt breeder that is breeding forward on her stock. They are both just mediocre, and one should not be held in contempt (as often happens to mutt breeders) while the other gets a free pass cuz they breed papered dogs. . . . . and I am afraid that too often that is the message that is being put forward . . . . here anyway.

    Messages need to be more balanced with less polarization. The full issue seems to be very polarized and I'm sure if we looked at why we'd see AR sitting in the background laughing about how they get breeders to fight against and demonize each other just by 'what' they breed - show vs working vs. pet, pure vs. mutt. etc. They have created an atmosphere where breeders now fight amongst each other just to justify putting a litter on the ground and it is a shame that is what is happening.

    Some interesting thoughts here: - Time 4 Dogs: "The Enemy Within"

    WHERE HAVE ALL THE GOOD DOGS GONE? ASK HSUS! By Nancy Glick


    CC
     
    #55 comfortcreature, Sep 10, 2011
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2011
  16. swarthy

    swarthy PetForums VIP

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    I acknowledge there are breeds where this is not possible - and have more than once alluded to type to type breeding and the new KC registration procedure for unregistered dogs now available in the UK. The relaxation of UK quarantine laws may also have a positive impact in time.

    My response was based on the UK market and is predominantly where the posters appear to be from and what they refer to

    I appreciate this is going to be challenging in any large geographic country - in theory the possibility is there, in practice, I aknowledge it would be difficult - and it's not just the US, it would be in some European Countries and Australia - having said that prolific dogs and kennel names do have the capacity to cross borders on a fairly regular basis with British dogs across the globe and increasingly, American and European dogs in the UK.


    YOU may not refer to ALL pedigree dogs, but the written word is open to interpretation and seldom (if ever in fact) are specific breeds alluded to - it's not defensive - I have NEVER once denied that problems exist in some breeds and I am NOT condoning it or trying to pretend the situation doesn't exist.

    But most posters on here say "pedigree dogs can't breath" etc etc - how is this meant to be interpreted In English - this means - ALL pedigrees - when I and many others know these breeds actually make up a relatively miniscule proportion all pedigree dogs bred and registered.

    I have more to post - but my OH is going to strangle me if I don't leave now for the show :eek: - I will return
     
  17. comfortcreature

    comfortcreature PetForums VIP

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    I understand that Swarthy.

    Unfortunately across many forums that reach world wide we have posters that are attempting to promote the purchase of 'purebred only' on the idea that all areas are just like that of the U.K. . . . as if the established system there has the same following and popularity elsewhere.

    . . . . as if the ancestry of pedigrees here IS well followed and that the ancestors/siblings/uncles are well known of by the breeders . . . . and the fact is that this is an INCREDIBLY rare occurance. As I am not in the UK I find it an astonishing idea that anestors and family are met by many there, but I understand that if there is any place it can be, that would be where.

    When I live in a country where the shelter system fairly well manages the dog population, where roughly 10% of dogs are registered and the message is to cull the rest from breeding programs, I feel I have an obligation to speak out. That idea would be an unmitigated disaster for dogs and the dog population here . . . . . . and a boon for every commercial breeder that wanted to fill that gap.

    Prolific dogs DO get moved around. . . but that is not a solution to the problem of breeders in countries of vast geographic space being able to know the dogs behind. The breeders that use these dogs do not get to REALLY know their background. They do not get to have their hands on grandparents and uncles etc. or see their temperaments . . . the kennels they come from often do not fully disclose pertinent information on these dogs.

    The point I am making is the show system that works for pedigree breeds in small urbanized areas does allow breeders to 'know what they are breeding'. It does not translate, however, to larger spread out areas. Many, many very well meaning pedigree breeders in North America continue to be breeding with very little hands on knowledge of the dogs behind and it is false to claim that they do simply because they have the names of these dogs on a pedigree paper and have talked at length to their original kennel. I follow import pedigrees too closely, and have seen the disasters happen from some imported dogs, to believe full disclosure is happening.

    Again, this is not to be taken as 'anti-pedigree'. Being involved with rescue for many years I happen to be 'pro-good-breeder', as breeders that back up their pups for life ARE part of the solution. I also believe in freedom of breeders to choose how and what they want to breed and not be limited, as that is true breeding tradition IMHO.:) Along with that I firmly believe that there needs to be openness and honesty about what the limitations of breeders are - that is the limitations of working breeders, mutt breeders, show breeders and every other category . . . . and they ALL have pros and cons.

    Again, I have yet to read 'most' posters say anything like 'pedigree dogs can't breath". If one poster does, I know myself, I would ask for clarification of their meaning and NOT jump to the conclusion that they mean ALL pedigree dogs. I find the conclusion that they necessarily mean 'all' to be defensive . . . and that is exactly what I was trying to point out regarding defensiveness and polarization. Many believe they know what the other is trying to put across and jump to conclusions, often giving an immediate defensive response. I've seen it happen and misunderstandings ensue many, many times on these threads.

    We have a population of approx. 7 million dogs in Canada. By attrition alone we lose approximately 600,000 a year and our registry registers about 60 thousand yearly – many of those commercially bred. Registered dogs, even of poor breeding, cannot even supply 1/10th of the demand from attrition. The attack against mutt breeders by those who do differently, joining up with AR most times without thought, does the plight of dogs in my country absolutely no good. . . .

    . . . . so this, to me, continues to be an obvious question as well. The background is just as well known on many mongrels as it is on many pedigrees and the gamble much the same IF a breeder is willing to hold the pups for a length and sort through the pups for temperament before placing, matching to homes that suit, of course.

    That IS the tradition of breeding that I know, and that IS the work of the breeder, but it is being supplanted (supposedly for ethical reasons) by the breeding of purebred only with papers, even though those pedigrees are most often of equally unknown background - truly.

    I frankly do not see one method of breeding as superior to the other. They each have good and bad . . . . but I know one is being shouted down constantly as being an unethical method purely by default of 'what' is being bred and breeders of mutts have been putting up with this shout down for many, many years.

    AR are now switching to the pedigrees. . . .

    I'm as well off . . . Parkinson's walk . . . in honour of my mom who fought the dreaded condition for 35+ years, for my brother who is still fighting, and for Dr. John Burchard who also loved dogs, and who we lost too soon to it.

    CC
     
    #57 comfortcreature, Sep 10, 2011
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2011
  18. Elles

    Elles PetForums VIP

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    I mentioned pedigree dogs that have trouble breathing, I didn't mean all pedigree dogs, I would have to be very stupid if I thought that. :eek:

    I don't mention specific breeds, it would be unfair to single out a specific breed on a Pet Forum where one of the breed may be a much loved pet. I think most people know which ones they are though.
     
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