hi all, just checking in to see if i can pick brains for a little advice.
I have had horses for over ten years and use natural horsemanship mostly, i have only personal experience to work from and no official training, i have 4 ponies for leisure riding and have previously had shetlands for my children when they were younger. My older ponies are 100% well handled broke etc, my 2 younger ponies aged 3/4 were both untouched yearling stallions when we got them and have came on over the past year/18mnths to being backed and ridden by my 4 daughters. We have used parelli as a base to work with them and join up worked almost effortlessly, i am very happy with their achievements.
8 weeks ago i took on a rescue 6 yr old dartmoor x only background i was given was he had been with his previous owner 4 yrs and had very little handling was led from field to stable with a bucket of feed no rope etc. He seemed interested in contact and although shy not nervous, he allowed me to put a head-collar on him within minutes in his stable with help from some food. Once home he was very shy but took well to handling, he was easily led, gd with traffic etc whilst led, i began working on the lunge and mouthing and that side of things are going very well. He works lovely with roller or saddle on the lunge without a passenger lol. I have used join up regular with him and found sometimes he responds well and others i feel like i'm fighting a losing battle, he doesn't seem to respond or even acknowledge i'm there lol. He's very comfortable with his own company and doesn't seem interested in being a part of my group of ponies, i have also tried him with another small mare who he acknowledged but wasn't really interested. He seems ready to be backed and is happy for my youngest daughter(age 9 approx 5st) to sit on his back without the saddle for upto 10mins, until i ask for walk when he then panics and jumps/rears, afterwards she can then sit while he stands. When i introduced my older daughter (15yrs approx 7st) to mount him, he panicked as soon as he felt her weight, we persisted and calmed him began with leaning etc, but he tried every way to avoid her being over him, we then took him into his stable where he seems to be calmer and he allowed her to lean but i was apprehensive to push further with the confined space. He has had his back checked and that is fine, he is happy for me to lean over him and put almost my full weight over him. i am feeling it is a hands on problem with his trust in people? he is happy with his own space and finds it difficult to share this with others... horse or human? does that sound mad? lol has anybody any advice or hints that might help with this problem, i'm prepared to put lots of time and effort into Shea as he is a lovely little pony and i can see he has potential if we can work together and overcome this? thanx in advance for any replies, mandy

I would suggest you look into clicker training to get him on your side. It sounds as though he was worried when he saw someone above him and then when he tried to walk, felt unbalanced and unsafe too and that has now escalated. I think you need to go back and fill the holes in your training (sometimes he listens, sometimes it's as though I'm not there) before an attempt is made to ride him again.

I think you could start pretty much back at the beginning, but I would recommend reward based training methods instead of, or combined with natural horsemanship for this guy, in order to build his confidence and use his independence as a positive aid to training him.

8 weeks isn't very long at all. I wouldn't expect an independent pony with little to no handling to be totally confident just yet. It can take a long time for a pony to settle into a herd and make friends too. Some people say it takes 2 years for a horse to really feel at home.

I agree with Elles - 8 weeks is a very short space of time, if I were you I would of just had him walking out in hand to build up a bond with him first then start long lining etc.
I would forget doing join up - it is only useful for very low ranked horses who are desperate to follow a leader/one that has learnt the tricks and knows how to do the least amount of work or if you are monty roberts a horse that has been run to exhaustion, it does not work on independant type horses or dominant ones as they don't care about being away from a herd, especially if they have weak bonds with you in the first place!! It can just make things worse and can be dangerous with dominant horses!! So please ditch the parelli/join up/cats claw(always makes me laugh that) rubbish and just use common sense, take your time and build up a relationship with him slowly - there is no rush.
I would also avoid clicker training - great for dogs, dolphins etc but not an animal you intend to ride!! Treats are also a bad thing with more dominant types as it can lead to biting and zero respect for personal space which can be lethal if you have children about or have a herd of horses.
When I get a newbie in I leave to settle for several weeks with a buddy from the herd and then turnout with the rest, some horses are naturally a bit stand offish - same as people - it's just their personality, often the native types are like this as they have to be pretty self sufficient and independent to survive - it's actually a good thing as you know he will be pretty chilled where ever he is and not a napper!!
Then after they have settled there for a few weeks and are happy for me to touch them all over loose in the field and don't bugger off, I start doing stuff in hand and just build up trust from there. I often take them for a walk with my dogs and chatter away to them - gets lots of strange looks but who cares it gets them used to my voice!!!
When they are totally happy with you then try some basics and just go from there, don't be in a rush to get on his back - don't make that your main goal. Always end every lesson on a positive note, even if the lesson has only been 5 minutes and he has taken a big step in the right direction, praise and turn him back out. 2 short lessons in a day are far better than one long one where the horse has switched off and is getting sour and you are fighting with them, plus once turned out on a positive it gives them time to mull it over!!
If you like common sense methods with an airy twist then have you looked at Claus Hemplfing - I do have time for him, his books are well worth reading and I think there are some vids on youtube. I went to his first UK demo, he was VERY good and the animals came first so was not the most entertaining thing to watch but so interesting, not like the others who make their stuff like a circus show!! I went to 2 parelli displays as I couldn't believe what I had seen on the first - I walked out of both - I couldn't stand to see animals abused like that I was horrified to say the least!!! - I will give them one positive - their marketing strategy is something else where else would you pay so much for a stick!!???!!

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Klaus Hempfling if you need the spelling to look him up.

Not many people use clicker to build a relationship with a horse or pony, it's true. I personally find it very effective (though I use a word instead of a clicker), but it would need researching thoroughly.

As you're already interested in join-up methods, Kelly Marks might be a better person to ask about your problems tbh. She also has a website and forum and is milder than Monty himself.

Intelligent Horsemanship

I too would dump any Parelli, the methods are too coercive and violent imo.

hi and thnx for the replies,

you have both brought up options and ideas i have overlooked. Just so you know i've never paid for equipment that is over rated and don't actually own or attended any parelli or paraphernalia and i do like kelly marks although still don't agree with all her methods lol, what i meant was i like to use my ponies natural instincts, building a bond, enjoying the company, wanting to be with, and most importantly trusting me, then pass this on to anybody else who wants to work with them, my 4 ponies all trust me 99% ( because everybody with sense knows there is no 100% lol). As my ponies are pets and only leisure riders we rarely even work them to a sweat other than when they are jumping etc so nothing is done under exhaustion, my ponies work with us because they love and trust us and more importantly WANT to and yes there are regularly times when they ask us not to do things lol. I spent 3-4 hours a day (frequently still do) with my trotter for weeks when i first brought him home sitting in his stable, standing with him touching and grooming and always talking to him and yes i get those strange looks too lol. This is the way i have started with all my ponies. I have seen and read lots of different variations of all kinds of training and taken what i find as the common sense from it.
I feel you both understand where i'm coming from as its difficult to explain his behaviour without seeing it, but some of what you have said sounds just like him. Very independent and no need to be in company, and strangely panicky when I have asked for a rider to mount him, he has taken everything else well with little upset.
Yes your thoughts on worry when feeling unbalanced etc sound sensible but his panic was instant as i asked for walk although he had been very happy to stand on a daily basis with my younger daughter sitting bareback.... so maybe somebody has tried before me?

i also thought of the clicker training because i know this would work with Shea as he is very food orientated, (he sometimes avoids contact when you approach him in the field but will always run to a bucket) i haven't had problems with ground work and can't understand how clicker could work mounted. I understand treat/reward systems and the negatives that can come chasing/biting but these are not an issue with Shea he responds perfectly to treats (i actually only use our feed mix as a treat, no sweets or anything else) and he has no aggression or signs of biting etc.

I suppose the best way to explain his relationship with humans and horses is he can take it or leave it ..... he enjoys the cuddles and strokes but doesn't look for them other than after work, i noticed once he has lunged which he does beautifully, when i approach him to acknowledge his achievements he immediately turns to have his face scratched lol I don't feel he needs to be turned away or left to settle he is happy in his new home and with us. I know herd integration can take time although i feel he doesn't even seem interested but that might come and i am fine with his pace.

thank you for the link and names and i am going to look through their work and see if anything could be applied to help with Shea. Mandy

an after thought, I have photos and videos of all my ponies including Shea on my facebook, if anybody thinks seeing these may help with any advice they could give me then feel free to add me as a friend lol xx

mandylouloubelle@hotmail.co.uk

If you want to carry on and get him ridden by your older daughter. I would suggest that your older daughter spends a few days doing nothing other than leaning over him and reassuring him until he accepts being leaned over 100% anywhere, not just in the stable and from both sides.

Then ask him to move one foot forward, or pick up a foot with her leaned over him, as soon as he does, praise him and she slides off. Repeat for a few days, gradually asking him to move one foot, then two, etc. Always sliding off as soon as he's taken the required number of steps, stopping to give him time to relax and think.

Then back to standing still, ask her to go into sitting position, but still keeping her upper body folded and low over his neck. Praise him, slide off again and do more leaning over with steps. If he stiffens or shows any sign of being uncomfortable, slide off and go back a step.

This should be attempted from both sides of the pony, not just the near side.

When he can be led around with her leaning over him, and led around with her crouching on his back, start to introduce her sitting normally upright with him stood still. Introduce her moving around on his back, waving her arms and legs. When he is entirely comfortable with this (many horses do not like to suddenly see a person higher than him and behind him on his back, especially if they move) start to take the one steps with her sitting normally.

If at any time he shows signs of discomfort, or worried tension, go back a stage or two.

Hope this helps.

Thnx Elles,

Sounds like the beginning of our plan, lol. We have spent a couple of evenings now working slowly in the stable, like mentioned before there is no rush we would just like him to have the trust and bond with us, as you have said just leaning for maybe a minute and backing a stage whenever he seems uncomfortable. We are going to work from there with the up-close side of things and i have ordered a clicker to help with the approach in the field so he should respond quite nicely. i will let you know how we get on over the next few weeks and if there are any other hints or tips around I am definitely here to listen. If anybody on here has experienced a pony with an acceptance of their own company i would love to hear from them xx

I am going to persist with this and see if we get anywhere, even a slight improvement over the next few weeks would be great but also thought if i don't see this then long reining and maybe driving him could be an option and returning to breaking for ride a few months down the line, in the spring

xx mandy