I get where you are coming from Hutch - there are just so many trains of thought about feeding raw versus dry/ complete. Some say 33% bone, some 10%, some say NO to carbs, others it's okay, some say NO to veg, for others it's all important. Very confusing. I must admit -- I think I will be better feeding her a raw diet wholey once she is grown and mature. I've actually just been to tesco's and bought some butchers wet (50%) meat, to mix in with her dry so will see how that goes. I'm not feeding her rubbish with her training (as it is just raw belly of pork) and I'm dubious about the sugar content of a lot of training treats etc. But I do think she might be lacking something and I think I'm going to mix and match now. A bit of raw mince, a bit of dry and a bit f Butchers in 3 small meals and see how it goes. I'll leave the raw for training treats. She might find them much more inviting if she only has it then and in tiny quanitites. What do you think?

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I would mix soem of the raw witht he dry and then some of the butchers with the dry just so you know they are gettign the energy and nutrients they require.

Even when feedign raw you still need to feed supplimnets to provide the missing nutrients they require.

Don;t forget that dogs evolved from scavanging animals that would have eaten left over meat, bones, cereals and veg not just purely meat and bone.

Done - first feed of a mixture of dry and raw 'complete' mince. Taken a few mouthfuls and then left it. I've taken it up now. I've ordered a big bag of dry (as I only had samples) and will use up my smaples and then get a proper routine going. I feel like I've wasted so much time with her now! Bummer! I'll give it a week or two and see if she improves.

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I recommend CSJK9 dog food as they are working collie and trialists who have developed the ffed specifically with collies in mind.

DO NOT GET THE ROCKET FUEL FOOD!!!!!

They do puppy food and they deliver to your door.

was just reading through this and gotta say hutch you have a few facts wrong...

it is up to spid what she feeds (and indeed you), but i just want to point out that dogs would NOT eat stomach contents of prey. this is a common misconception and you can see this through any official studies/reports of captive wild dogs/wild dogs/wolves.

also, dogs fed the correct balance on a raw diet ARE getting a complete diet if you want to call it this - they get their vitamins and minerals from the meat itself.

I dont want to be awkward here, but I just had to say something as please dont make statements as if they are FACT which could worry people new to feeding raw/just starting out when they are not actually true... I am happy to provide research and references to any of these things if anyone wants as have done a huge amount of research on this and also now am lucky enough to know a large number of people now who have the experience of raw feeding for 15-20 years +.

I would actually suggest that if anything perhaps there is just not ENOUGH of the raw being fed to spids pup, rather than the wrong thing - growing pups need a suprisingly large amount of food for how little they are...I know enough people to have weaned pups onto raw that have never had these issues from being on it, so this isnt a normal reaction. it also could still just be due to the normal short concentration levels of a young pup...

correct me if im wrong spid, but wasnt your pup from pure show lines? VERY different temperament to a mix of show and working/working lines. most i have met are MUCH more laid back...

Or of course it could be a combination of the above. at this age I think most pups are not too interested in proper training, they just want to play...so you could try making the training into games instead? maybe leave shaping til pup is a bit older?

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I completely accept that feeding raw or feeding whatever is up to the owner. However I am sceptical as to why vegetable and fruit is not thought to be important in an ominvore's diet as most sites on raw feeding suggest supplements to make up for the lack of vital minerals and vitamins not found in raw meat.

I agree that the amounts described were perhaps a little below what would be consumed in set meals.

On a side not when it comes to the stomach contents part I mentioned from the hundreds of mice and birds my cats have eaten, then tens of rabbits I have seen eaten by dogs and foxes, the remains of sheep attacks I have seen and wild deer that have been consumed by something - nothing has gione to waste with the abdomen and ofal being the most common area of attack with no wastage even if it is the easiest way into a carcass. Watch any footage of a big cat or wild canid kill or look at any carcass you come across and see if they waste anything other what they leave for the scavangers after eating their fill. Dogs are similar in that they would eat whatever we threw out and they could scavange. Rarely would meat be thrown away as this was a precious food source to us. Bones with scraps on and veg could be disposed of as just around the time we as a species started farmign was abou the time that pinpoints a definite correlation to domestic dogs featuring heavily in our communities. We farmed fruit and veg first becasue it was easier to grown and didn't run away.

I'm going to mix and match for a while AND up her quantities - she was having between 350 and 450g of raw a day so I'll make sure it's nearer the 450-500g, not sure whether to do all raw days and other days dry and wet food, or AM/PM as I'm sure they are digested at different rates. I shall go and have a ponder.

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I cant go into it all on here, but suffice to say, it is too fiddly to remove stomach and intestines in small prey and so they eat it whole (my cats actually dont consume the stomach of most things though, they leave it as a present for me)

yes definitely they eat offal though and this is also where certain vitamins come from. with the larger animals dogs would not go for stomach contents...the studies i refer to make a point of mentioning that they actually seem to go straight for the abdomen area, split the animal open from there, drag out the stomach and intestines and split them open...shake them about until they are emptied and then consume the stomach lining itself...

a dog is not an omnivore though it is a carnivore - i will post a new thread on it with my references when i get a sec (in health and nutrition) if you woudl be interested? Science and educational institutions/animal studies etc still class dogs as carnivores - the omnivore myth seems to be something that has started cropping up since vets and pet food companies got together to justify what they put in their pet foods...

One of the key things to note is that there is a distinction given: "Although there are reported cases of herbivores eating meat matter, as well as examples of carnivores eating plants, the classification refers to the adaptations and main food source of the species in general, so these exceptions do not make either individual animals nor the species as a whole omnivores."

I agree that dogs can and will eat both, but meat is always their primary diet and their dentition, internal and external anatomy, and physiology are all geared towards mainly eating meat - hence why I think they are carnivores (and scavengers) but not omnivores...whereas an omnivore is an animal whose make up is for eating both meat and vegetation - but dogs do not have any of the physical factors to indicate this (such as the correct enzyme in their mouths to start breaking down cellulose, the flat molars, the longer intestines etc)...hope that makes sense!

hope you dont take this the wrong way, I dont want to pick on you here!! lol ...I am just quite passionate about it all having done months of research to try and find the proper answers for myself and I am aware that it is a minefield of info and dead ends out there when it comes to this kind of thing - have PMd you with info!!

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yes it does sound like the quantities were maybe a little low...if you go with 2-3% of expected adult body weight per day then what you are feeding is probably a little low...

If you say an ave adult female BC weighs around 17kg - so you would be looking at somewhere between 340-510g - but as jinx is a pup, i would feel more comfortable going for the top end of this and reducing if you feel necessary... i still fed maggie the top end until recently when i think she has stopped growing now i am moving her down to nearer 2% to get it at a maintenance level.

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Ta, I will up her quantities. Having said that -- she has just walked away from her chicken (eaten ON HER MAT __ it did go in!) - the cats will get it if she doesn't eat it soon!!!! Bessie did that yesterday.

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please look at my website - www.finesthourcats.webs.com - for gorgeous GCCF registered RagaMuffins and Selkirk Rex