Hi,

I am new to the Forums and would really appreciate some advice please. I have a lovely Jack Russell female pup. She (Millie) is fantastic off the lead, friendly towards all dogs- big and small and is doing really well in her puppy classes. Everybody that has met her has said what a lovely nature she has (It's not just me being hugely biased!). I also have 3 children, a 9 yr old and 6 yr old daughter and a 4 yr old son. Millie has been great with the girls but a couple of weeks ago Millie growled at my son when he affectionately but over-zealously leant on her whilst she was asleep on the sofa next to him. I spoke to one of the dog trainers who said not to let her sleep on the sofa- very sensibly. We did this for about a week and then very stupidly I let her back on next to my son today. Millie was sick in the night and had had the runs this morning (i'm in the process of changing her food at the minute) and wasn't really herself on her walk this morning.

I was sat with both my son and Millie when he leant on her to stroke her (she was asleep) and she snapped at him and cut his cheek. I immediately shouted no and shoved her off the settee.

I am repeatedly telling my son not to pick her up or put his face right in Millies face- he always wants to kiss her- which I am working hard to discourage and I have spoken to him about respecting Millie's 'space'.

After the incident today though my husband is saying we should get rid of her
. I would really appreciate some advice please. I can totally see my husband's point of view and I would never forgive myself if she seriously hurt one of my kids or someone elses but I also feel it was slightly provocked and both my son and Millie need more training. Millie is no longer allowed on the settee.I really don't feel it is fair to write her off as an aggressive dog. She is crate-trained and doing really well at her puppy classes. I feel totally responsible for the whole situation occurring and I'm just not sure what to do.

Many thanks

Post seemed insenstive for topic...

Hi,

Millie sounds like a delightful little puppy.

I would suggest that you work with a good trainer using reward based training methods while your puppy is developing. Welcome to APDT - Association of Pet Dog Trainers UK should help with this if you would like any help. You may already know a trainer.

You seem to make some very valid points in your discussion and it is so critical that Millie is not disturbed by people (or your son) if she doesn't 'enjoy' it when she is sleeping as you dont want her to learn / practice this behaviour through repetition.

If she is not feeling at her best then this could make her more likely to react to things, just like some people may be more grumpy when not feeling too good. I would suggest a vet check to rule out any physical pains etc.

A lot of management around your son and Millie is required and NO unsupervised interactions should occur. This is for your Son as well as Millie. I see a lot of puppies and dogs who live with children and the owners comment on how they get on so well but when i watch the dog I get a completely different picture. It is worth noting how dogs communicate using their body by doing things like blinking, lip licking, yawning, turning away, freezing etc... These can be signs of stress and indications of unease in a social situation ( a good trainer can provide you further info regarding this). I would also suggest a book called "The Canine Commandments" by Kendal Shepherd

There is also a free tool on the internet which you can use with your son:http://www2.the-kennel-club.org.uk/web_portal/

Another resource is I use with parents and children in puppy class is: thebluedog

Finally, I can understand where your husbands concerns come from and this is something which you should discuss with him. A good local trainer can help advice, help and guide you.

__________________
Also check out www.dogstardaily.com for lots more free videos and articles about all things dogs.

Chirag

Chirag Patel BSc (Hons), DipCABT, CPDT
San Francisco SPCA Certificates in Training & Behaviour and Dog Aggression
Member of the Association of Pet Dog Trainers #00923 (UK) #71093 (US)
Pets as Therapy Assessor

www.domesticatedmanners.com
cpatel@domesticatedmanners.com

If you look at it from the dogs point of view - if I was asleep and someone came over and leant on me I would turn round and tell them to bugger off! Its his way of saying go away - I think getting rid of him would be very harsh. I have a 5 yr old and a 3 yr old and we had to set very firm ground rules around what was acceptable when playing with the dog - I think you need to instill the rules to your son - not touching when asleep/ eating etc, not taking their toys away from them - i'm sure your son just wants to play but you cant blame the dog he was just telling your son he didnt like it.

Thank you for such quick responses and such helpful advice. I will look at those websites tonight. It is very hard to get the balance right with children and dogs- in terms of what is acceptable behaviour from the puppy and the kids. The children overheard me having a conversation with my husband last night and were distraught at the thought that Millie would ever be re-homed. It was a good opportunity for me to reiterate how Millie should be treated. Millie is actually incredibly good with the children and the settee seems to be a particular flash point with her. Already this morning she has attempted to jump onto the settee with my son and I twice. Both times my son has (under supervision) gently and firmly pushed her down and said no and she is now sat in her bed looking at us. It is sad because she seems to enjoy snuggling up close with my son but if the alternative is my son getting seriously injured and losing Millie then the settee cuddles have to stop.

We are attending a KC accredited puppy class and I will carry on with the next stage of training when they end. Millie is a quick learner and enjoys the clicker training. I am also getting my son to help with that- he really enjoys click and treating Millie.

I am aware that JRT's can be fiesty strong willed dogs but my parents have had one for years and I have friends with JRTs that are lovely. Millie came from a breeder with 3 young kids and her mum had a fantastic nature. I think the answer is training, training, training both the dog and children.

Thank you so much for your advice,

I'm glad that you're seeing it a little more positively today. A pup and a 4-year old just isn't an easy combination! Just remember that growling is 'good' in the sense that it's a warning system. We *want* the dog to growl if it's uncomfortable. If we tell it off for growling, that's kind of like turning off the fire alarm when there's a fire. Sure, the alarming sound is gone, but the fire (the dog's discomfort) is still there!

__________________
It's not easy for a monkey to think like a dog

My cat Tijgje shows off his tricks

I have Basil (4 month old border terrier). Then there's my daughter who is 9 and my son who is 5.

My daughter is great and has taken on the rules we set out very well, but my son is still getting the occasional nip from Basil because he just won't leave him alone when he needs to and he also seems to wind Basil up in to a frenzy at any given opportunity! My son has been told over and over but they both get whooped up...I think Basil sees him as another pup and then all hell breaks loose! I have had to tell my son that he will not be allowed to play with Basil at all if he cannot stick to the rules. I watch them and they have such fun together but even when I am warning my son to remember the rules he just gets carried away sometimes and then wonders why Basil nips him!

In my (limited) experience, and for what it's worth, I think you're doing really well and please don't give up. It's really hard training kids and pups but I am sure we will all get there in the end!

Hi and welcome, hope you have as much fun here as I do and benefit from the support and advice I have had too.

Sorry to hear about your unfortunate incident. I am grandma to a 3yr old and got a little JR x Westie last May. I have found the only way to keep on top of their situation is to never leave them alone together. Easier for me than you. Both Heidi and Chloe play brilliantly together but there were times when either of them have been a bit too rough and needed reminding.

It sounds like your son either hurt or startled her in the first instance when he leaned on Millie and overloved her . She has obviously remembered this and doesn't want a repeat. It's very hard to put all the ground rules in place when you get a pup because you need to look at the bigger picture and decide if "that" behaviour will be appropriate when they are fully grown and possible implications. Shame that Millie was led to believe it was ok to be on the sofa and now its not but she will come to terms with that. I've done things with Heidi that seemed like a good idea at the time and learned the hard way.

All praise to your for trying to find the best way to resolve the situation and keep Millie. I feel sure that with the advice already given and her classes, you will win the day.

the dog is ASLEEP + not feeling well; she is startled awake by inappropriate touch, she snaps with EXCELLENT bite-inhibition... and U shoved her off the sofa?
sorry... in Ur place, i would have...
smacked the infant-bottom, apologized to the dog, thanked her for her beautiful restraint, and had a serious sit-down chat with my son.
it was IMO much-more than Slightly Provoked - it was entirely provoked.

i would carefully explain to the children -
* dogs do not HUG
* dogs do not KISS
* dogs should NEVER be approached, let alone Touched!, as they eat, sleep, chew a bone, tend pups, or are otherwise self-engaged.

let sleeping dogs lie... is an excellent precept; if Ur son cannot be trusted to leave her strictly alone (and U were sitting there!),
she should sleep in her crate, where he cannot even get to the crate, period.

IOW the crate (with the dog in it) should be behind a locked door, an un-climbable baby-gate that the 3-YO cannot open, up stairs that are securely gated, or otherwise separated entirely from the 3-YO.

obviously supervision is not enuf; separation is the next logical step.
As he was approaching the sleeping dog, why did U not *stop* him?


--- terry

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terry pride, APDT-Aus, apdt#1827, CVA, TDF
*wolves R wolves, dogs R dogs, + primates R us.*
tmp, sept-2007

Hi, Thank you again for all your excellent advice. I would like to say I really appreciate it. I would also like to say that hindsight is a marvelous thing and as a new dog owner (although I have grown up with dogs so I'm not entirely ignorant) I am trying my best Leashedforlife. I was sat on a two seater settee with my son in the middle and Millie the other side of him when the incident occurred. My son was not being aggressive towards Millie- he was tyring to show her affection and as I am sure you can you can appreciate, both a 4 year old and a puppy can move quickly! I intervened and reacted as most parents would if a puppy or dog snapped at a their child. I comforted my crying son (the serious conversation with him then followed). I would never hit or smack my son-maybe if he'd shown aggressive behaviour towards the pup I would have considered it- but still don't think 2 wrongs make a right! I personally don't advocate hitting children, dogs or anyone for that matter!

I take full responsibility for the incident- the situation should never have occurred in the first place- and it won't happen again. With young chidren it is a case of constantly rewarding the good behaviour and explaining why the bad behaviour is bad. Pretty much like you do with dog training!

My son wasn't being spiteful and that is quite a hard concept for him to understand. He knows hitting and kicking is bad and wrong but he knows that being loving is a good thing so its a difficult concept for him to grasp (he has only just turned four).

I will continue with my son's education and training and I certainly don't think Millie is an aggressive dog but I, like all parents don't want to end up with my child (or someone elses) disfigured or seriously injured and I really don't want to give up my lovely puppy.

I was seeking advice as to whether I need to be concerned about my puppy's suitability to be around children or whether with careful training, management and supervision it's going to be ok.

Thank you everyone for bothering to reply- I do really appreciate it.