Help! Training Puppy around 3 dogs and another puppy? - Page 4

dogpositivetraining · #31 (**permalink**) 28-07-2008, 05:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DoubleTrouble

One thing I would have to disagree on on this one - 12 weeks imo is way too long for a pup to remain with the litter, the majority of weims I know on with problems have been due to 'unsufficient socializing (between the 8-12 week period' )usually solded cheeply by PF's between 12-16 weeks of age, don;'t imagine I am alone on this
regards
Sue

Hi Sue,

I do appreciate what you're saying. It has been the norm for a puppy to leave the litter at 7/8 weeks. However I now only work with Breeders who keep the puppy with the litter until at least 10/12 weeks.

A good breeder should have a structured socialization program, (which actually starts gradually at 3 weeks and builds up), so a puppy going to a new home at 10/12 weeks will already have had plenty of socialization and exposure to different stimuli.

Far from being sold cheaply I actually pay more to have the breeder start the socialization program, and also do some basic training. When Harley arrived in his new home he already new his name, and the requests 'sit', 'stay', 'come', and his heel work was just beginning.

Of course when I say he already new these requests I don't mean he did as I asked every time

this is something I have worked on and now he does listen, and does as asked first time.

There is now a new school of breeders realising that it is often in the best interest of the puppy to stay within the familiarity and stable environment of the litter during the 'Sensitive Phase' of development, which can be at any time from 7 to 9 weeks.

At this time, the most ordinary events may frighten the puppy and have a profound and possibly lasting effect on its personality. Breeders can minimize stress to the pups by keeping the litter together for another week or two and maintaining the familiar, stable environment.

The breeder must sensitively and systematically introduce different objects, people and situations. The pups will be less threatened and have a greater chance of coping with the new stimuli if their surroundings are familiar and comfortable during the critical fear period.

In addition at around 8 weeks interactions between litter-mates becomes more intense and serious in forming the hierarchy. What used to appear as playfulness over a toy now literally becomes tug-of-war and a serious challenge for social position. These interactions involve complex body language and vocalizations, and prepare the animal for future canine relationships.

Also a good breeder will request that a professional canine behaviourist perform an aptitude test around this time. This is not stressful for the pups, and it is the best way of trying to ensure that the right puppy goes to the right owner. i.e. It would not be good to give a very dominant dog to a first time dog owner.

Of course it is also desirable (distance permitting), that the new owner should visit the breeder during this time and spend one-on-one time with their intended puppy.

Today, through the work, writings and observations of a great many people interested in the welfare of canine companions, we know that the socialization period does not end at sixteen weeks. Socialization is an ongoing process that must continue throughout the dog's life to maintain a stable and suitable temperament.

DoubleTrouble · #32 (**permalink**) 28-07-2008, 06:03 AM

Thanks for posting, have found this extremely interesting. Can I be nosey

are you in Cyprus??? And, Do you have weimaraners
regards
Sue

DoubleTrouble · #33 (**permalink**) 28-07-2008, 06:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JasperCarrot

Nooo seriously I was just wondering if I should stop asking Jasper for paw because you said its a submissive thing

was just wondering - all I want is the best for Jas

no hard fellings AT ALL

Edit / Add :

Sue I really honestly didnt mean to sound horrible or anything ! aww I feel so bad .. I honestly just wanted to know if you thought it would be a good idea to stop asking Jas for paw ( he never does just randomly give me his paw i have to say paw and put my hand up for him as like a que ) , but I wouldnt like him to start pawing me and as you said wild dogs 'give' there paw as a sign off submission .

Im so sorry about your dog it awfull what happened .
good luck with your puppy though im sure she will do great in agility
( Jasper is just mastering the weaving poles lol.. its hard work but with 2 full days of training he now does them but not on his own he follows your hand through .. not bad i dont think for 2 days if i may so so anyway lol

)

I really admire your posts and such just like your attitude and methods of training dogs and puppys .. anyway like I said I was just asking about the paw thing not criticizing or anything and I hate to think you thought thats the way I meant it .. Im sorry really am sorry

You are so nice, and no need to say sorry to me!! I just need to read what I have written before I press the send button!!!

It's an illness I have!!!! it's called impatience!

Love
Sue

jackson · #34 (**permalink**) 28-07-2008, 08:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dogpositivetraining

Hi Sue,

I do appreciate what you're saying. It has been the norm for a puppy to leave the litter at 7/8 weeks. However I now only work with Breeders who keep the puppy with the litter until at least 10/12 weeks.

A good breeder should have a structured socialization program, (which actually starts gradually at 3 weeks and builds up), so a puppy going to a new home at 10/12 weeks will already have had plenty of socialization and exposure to different stimuli.

Far from being sold cheaply I actually pay more to have the breeder start the socialization program, and also do some basic training. When Harley arrived in his new home he already new his name, and the requests 'sit', 'stay', 'come', and his heel work was just beginning.

Of course when I say he already new these requests I don't mean he did as I asked every time

this is something I have worked on and now he does listen, and does as asked first time.

There is now a new school of breeders realising that it is often in the best interest of the puppy to stay within the familiarity and stable environment of the litter during the 'Sensitive Phase' of development, which can be at any time from 7 to 9 weeks.

At this time, the most ordinary events may frighten the puppy and have a profound and possibly lasting effect on its personality. Breeders can minimize stress to the pups by keeping the litter together for another week or two and maintaining the familiar, stable environment.

The breeder must sensitively and systematically introduce different objects, people and situations. The pups will be less threatened and have a greater chance of coping with the new stimuli if their surroundings are familiar and comfortable during the critical fear period.

In addition at around 8 weeks interactions between litter-mates becomes more intense and serious in forming the hierarchy. What used to appear as playfulness over a toy now literally becomes tug-of-war and a serious challenge for social position. These interactions involve complex body language and vocalizations, and prepare the animal for future canine relationships.

Also a good breeder will request that a professional canine behaviourist perform an aptitude test around this time. This is not stressful for the pups, and it is the best way of trying to ensure that the right puppy goes to the right owner. i.e. It would not be good to give a very dominant dog to a first time dog owner.

Of course it is also desirable (distance permitting), that the new owner should visit the breeder during this time and spend one-on-one time with their intended puppy.

Today, through the work, writings and observations of a great many people interested in the welfare of canine companions, we know that the socialization period does not end at sixteen weeks. Socialization is an ongoing process that must continue throughout the dog's life to maintain a stable and suitable temperament.

Whilst I kind of agree with you, I do not think it is practical or sensible for breeders to keep pups until 12 weeks (unless toy breeds that need to for physical reasons). I kind of agree because the one pup I kept until 12 weeks (until her new owners got back from holiday) is the easiest of all her litter. However, I am not sure whether this is down to our experience compared to many first time owners, as opposed to the time spent with us, especially as she was on her own with us from 9 weeks. The pup that left us first, at 7 1/2 weeks, has 'caused' a few problems with over-exhuberant and innapropriate play biting, but again, I feel this is more down to the owners than anything else, despite the fact they have attended weekly or bi weekly training and socialisation classes with a good trainer since puppy was able.

I have a pup here I bought, collected at 10 weeks. (moving house, so couldn't collect at 8 weeks) She is now 5 months old and everyone comments on her excellent behaviour.

In large litters, there is no practical way a breeder can socialise a pup as well as it's new owners who can give the one pup their undivided attention. I always make sure that prior to pups leaving me at around 8 weeks, they are well used to their new owners (most visit 2-4 times a week) and that they have had plenty of time, in shortish periods, away from Mum and siblings. I also make sure they have been stood outside my children's school in my arms, been in the car several times, been to the vets, seen cats, horses cows and sheep, heard all the normal household sounds, heard fireworks, etc etc. They are also partially toilet trained whent hey leave. I do nto teach them commands (aside from the 12 week pup) as having discussed it with new owners, they prefer to do this themselves, which I accept. The pups do know their names though. I think considering the work rearing a large litter involves, if a breeder is expected to do any more than this, then the day to day care of the litter will suffer, especially as the pups get older and need more one to one care. I spend 24/7 with my litters and I found it hard to fit it all in.

i think the best thing is for new owners to be fully 'briefed' on how to best socialise their new puppy and how important it is.

momentofmadness · #35 (**permalink**) 28-07-2008, 09:21 AM

It just takes time for dogs to settle in.. And you can't just install it..

As for Weims and age they should leave litter. I advertised mine from 4 weeks for viewings and deposits to be left. I had someone come at 5 weeks.. And they wanted to take the puppy at 6 weeks.. I said I would only let them go from 8.. That wasn't good enough for them. So they went elsewhere.. My first puppy left at 8 weeks and I still have 1 pup left at 12 weeks... as I have gone on I have done my best to house train them.. and socialise them with our dogs. all house hold noises and two rowdy children.. I do not let the puppies jump up, and any commands tend to start with a clap to get the pups attention. I clap and say down, or clap and say no. The last pup I have for sale doesn't jump up. (I do expalin this to the new owners) The pup I am keeping has been sitting on command from 7 weeks and I shall now concentrate on training the little boy we have left for sale.

Its a pet hate of mine dogs jumping up..

I hope your puppies settle.. I am sure things will..

dogpositivetraining · #36 (**permalink**) 28-07-2008, 10:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jackson

Whilst I kind of agree with you, I do not think it is practical or sensible for breeders to keep pups until 12 weeks (unless toy breeds that need to for physical reasons). I kind of agree because the one pup I kept until 12 weeks (until her new owners got back from holiday) is the easiest of all her litter. However, I am not sure whether this is down to our experience compared to many first time owners, as opposed to the time spent with us, especially as she was on her own with us from 9 weeks. The pup that left us first, at 7 1/2 weeks, has 'caused' a few problems with over-exhuberant and innapropriate play biting, but again, I feel this is more down to the owners than anything else, despite the fact they have attended weekly or bi weekly training and socialisation classes with a good trainer since puppy was able.

I have a pup here I bought, collected at 10 weeks. (moving house, so couldn't collect at 8 weeks) She is now 5 months old and everyone comments on her excellent behaviour.

In large litters, there is no practical way a breeder can socialise a pup as well as it's new owners who can give the one pup their undivided attention. I always make sure that prior to pups leaving me at around 8 weeks, they are well used to their new owners (most visit 2-4 times a week) and that they have had plenty of time, in shortish periods, away from Mum and siblings. I also make sure they have been stood outside my children's school in my arms, been in the car several times, been to the vets, seen cats, horses cows and sheep, heard all the normal household sounds, heard fireworks, etc etc. They are also partially toilet trained whent hey leave. I do nto teach them commands (aside from the 12 week pup) as having discussed it with new owners, they prefer to do this themselves, which I accept. The pups do know their names though. I think considering the work rearing a large litter involves, if a breeder is expected to do any more than this, then the day to day care of the litter will suffer, especially as the pups get older and need more one to one care. I spend 24/7 with my litters and I found it hard to fit it all in.

i think the best thing is for new owners to be fully 'briefed' on how to best socialise their new puppy and how important it is.

Hi Jackson,

Thanks for your post.

My post was just a way of me sharing my experience on this particular issue.

In general I have found over the last few years puppies that have gone on to new owners at 10 to 12 weeks, develop in to confident, well-rounded adults, very sociable etc. The feedback I get from new owners who have previous experience with acquiring puppies at an earlier age, is that the puppies they pick up at 10/12 weeks seem to be more calm, adjust more readily to their new environment, more sociable with other dogs, very friendly with humans, and just seem better equipped to deal with the world

Yes I agree wholeheartedly that this is a LOT of work for the breeder, but it is also a labour of love

for many, as well as being what they actually do full-time for a living.

Puppies go through the socialization process you mention, each puppy has daily one-on-one time with humans, - including the new owner(s) - as well as all the other socializing; household appliances, other animals, trips in the car, trips to the vet, traffic, pedestrians, shops, joggers, postman, cyclist, cats, children, etc. IT IS FULL ON

Oh and just to clarify I'm talking about Breeders who keep all the litter until 10 to 12 weeks, so it's not like one puppy gets left behind. The Dam will be on holiday resting, but the other litter-mates will still be around.

And of course this is not cheap for the breeder, but they do pass the cost of these extra weeks and time on to the new owners, this doesn't seem to be an issue with the new owners.

And it goes without saying that socialization continues with the new owner and for the rest of the dogs life

Oh and this is not relating to just Weims, its all dogs. I just happen to love Weims

Angela

momentofmadness · #37 (**permalink**) 28-07-2008, 01:45 PM

The problem with forums is when we write something and we may not be being malicious to the person you reply too, but it may read a different way to them..

Hence the other day when Double trouble Pulled me for my opinion and imo was quite rude with her reply.. but quite possibly not meant that way so I asked how did she mean what she said.. The best way is to ask what is meant rather that jumping on a persons personal opinion.. Yes freedom of speech and all that but honestly you all come on here because of the same reason.. You love your pets and want to talk about them..

edited to say..

And you all don't know everything.. but you can certainly help each other with your knowledge.

DoubleTrouble · #38 (**permalink**) 29-07-2008, 07:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by momentofmadness

The problem with forums is when we write something and we may not be being malicious to the person you reply too, but it may read a different way to them..

Hence the other day when Double trouble Pulled me for my opinion and imo was quite rude with her reply.. but quite possibly not meant that way so I asked how did she mean what she said.. The best way is to ask what is meant rather that jumping on a persons personal opinion.. Yes freedom of speech and all that but honestly you all come on here because of the same reason.. You love your pets and want to talk about them..

edited to say..

And you all don't know everything.. but you can certainly help each other with your knowledge.

You just about hit the nail on the head i'd say. Speaking for myself I am not by no means to to gain brownie points and become Miss Forum Popularity 2008, I am her solely to gain knowledge, experience and pick the brains of those wiser to enable me to both understand my dogs better and to therefore become a better owner. If I can make a few buddys on the way then thats a bonus. A big big problem with me is that I only seem to half read something, I then jump in with both feet, often with both guns blazing. I blame the forum set up - it should be fitted with a delay button

But you are so so right, as I have said before I do not like to think that I have or shall ever be disrepectful to another member.
regards
Sue

littlemisschelsey · #39 (**permalink**) 29-07-2008, 09:21 PM

Hi everyone, thanks for all the replies. I haven't had internet for ages but finally got it running!

Molly is now 12 and a half weeks old and a very well behaved puppy. She sleeps in a crate at night with the other puppy and stays in from 10.30pm to 6am without complaint (although sometimes a little crying for the first 10 mins which is ignored).

I haven't been quite as consistent with her training as I should be (it's hard with the other four around) and up until yesterday she was coming 99.5/100 times when I shouted for her. She ignored me in the field yesterday and today and also ignored me in the back garden when I shouted her in so it's back to the flexi lead until she is 100% reliable. She sits everytime I ask and knows not to scrounge food so I can't really see that her being away early has left her with any problems. Housetraining is still not cracked (about 80% and I will often spend a good 10mins with her out in the garden or half an hour at the field and she will come in and empty her bowels as soon as we get in the house! Any tips? Peeing is not a problem as she always pees on command although today I forgot to go out at usual time and tell her to go(stupidly) and she came inside and peed in front of me even though the back door is open all the time. Guess I will just have to keep working on it.

Also, I'm struggling to teach her down as she is a mini dachshund when I drag a treat to the floor she can still reach it, have tried making a tunnel with my legs so she has to lie down but she just looks at me like i'm silly pulling the biscuit in there! Have tried gently pushing her down like I did with sit but it doesn't seem to be working!

Anything else I should be teaching her, just the basics really, I want her to sit, lie down and come on command.

Thanks

Jenny Olley · #40 (**permalink**) 29-07-2008, 10:12 PM

As a Daxi, she will almost certainly be a hinger, which means she will naturally hinge backwards to go into the down, hold the treat between your thumb and 1st finger (and don't let go of it), take it down slowly between her front legs moving it backward towards her chest, this will help to create the movement which is natural to her.

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
Help with pending puppy toilet training	lilburnthomson	Dog Training and Behaviour	7	16-08-2008 03:48 AM
Puppy training problems	scooter	Dog Training and Behaviour	7	29-05-2008 11:16 AM
Puppy Training! Does anyone know to?........	ladywiccana	Dog Chat	8	15-05-2008 10:20 PM
Be Consistent When Training Your Puppy	tomncp@gmail.com	Dog Health and Nutrition	14	02-05-2008 08:39 PM
Toilet training puppy	rich m	Dog Training and Behaviour	3	12-04-2008 09:19 PM