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Old 08-01-2010, 10:37 PM
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Thumbs up ART: Pos-R vs Pos-P in training naive herding-breed dogs to herd

from Animal Welfare 2004, 13: 63-69
http://www.antrozoologisenteret.no/a...ng_methods.pdf
Quote:
EXCERPT - *emphasis added* - tmp
When asked whether their dog exhibited any of 16 common problematic behaviours, the number of problems reported
by the owners correlated with the number of tasks for which their dog was trained using punishment (P<0.001),
but not [with the number of tasked trained] using rewards (P=0.17).
Exhibition of problematic behaviours may be indicative of compromised welfare, because such behaviours
can be caused by, or result in, a state of anxiety and may lead to a dog being relinquished or abandoned.
Because punishment was associated with an increased incidence of problematic behaviours, we conclude
that it may represent a welfare concern without concurrent benefits in obedience.

We suggest that positive training methods may be more useful to the pet-owning community.
the *punishment* used was a denial of access to the sheep, which seems to work nicely for dogs
intrinsically motivated to want to herd...
happy reading,
--- terry
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Old 09-01-2010, 07:02 AM
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Re: ART: Pos-R vs Pos-P in training naive herding-breed dogs to herd

Terry, when doing protection training I use denial of the to the helper (and the resultant bite) as punishment. It works beautifully. Though I believe that in general, if you have done your job properly then by not training or stopping off the training session then you will be using -R
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Old 09-01-2010, 12:36 PM
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Re: ART: Pos-R vs Pos-P in training naive herding-breed dogs to herd

Quote:
Originally Posted by Corinthian View Post
Terry, when doing protection training I use denial of the to the helper (and the resultant bite) as punishment. It works beautifully. Though I believe that in general, if you have done your job properly then by not training or stopping off the training session then you will be using -R
This is interesting. Would you mind explaining in a bit more detail what you actually do? I'm not particularly familiar with protection training and am not quite sure what you mean - I presume you are using frustration at not being able to access the 'target' person? Could you give an example of when you would use this - i.e. what behaviour would you 'punish / negatively reinforce' in this way?

thanks

p.s. here is another article on the association between training methods and behaviour problems in dogs:
Elsevier: Article Locator
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Old 09-01-2010, 07:57 PM
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Re: ART: Pos-R vs Pos-P in training naive herding-breed dogs to herd

Quote:
Originally Posted by ali32 View Post
This is interesting. Would you mind explaining in a bit more detail what you actually do? I'm not particularly familiar with protection training and am not quite sure what you mean - I presume you are using frustration at not being able to access the 'target' person? Could you give an example of when you would use this - i.e. what behaviour would you 'punish / negatively reinforce' in this way?

thanks

p.s. here is another article on the association between training methods and behaviour problems in dogs:
Elsevier: Article Locator
Damn, I meant -P. The dog loses the opportunity to be rewarded by the bite.
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Old 10-01-2010, 12:27 PM
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Re: ART: Pos-R vs Pos-P in training naive herding-breed dogs to herd

Thanks.

So if, for example, the dog moved towards the helper before a command is given, you prevent access to them (with a long line?)

Sorry - don't mean to be nosy - this is one area of training that I haven't had much direct experience of, and I'm interested
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Old 10-01-2010, 05:39 PM
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Re: ART: Pos-R vs Pos-P in training naive herding-breed dogs to herd

Quote:
Originally Posted by ali32 View Post
Thanks.

So if, for example, the dog moved towards the helper before a command is given, you prevent access to them (with a long line?)

Sorry - don't mean to be nosy - this is one area of training that I haven't had much direct experience of, and I'm interested
Some do that. At the beginning I just have the Helper drop the sleeve and everybody walks away. Later on, I will simply AUS him and walk away and he never gets the fight he craves.

For example during the escort, if the dog is anticipating, forgine and not heeling, a third person will never give the helper the signal to turn and attack. The only time that will happen is if the dog is heeling. Thus the dog learns that heeling for 30 paces causes the helper to engage
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Old 10-01-2010, 10:40 PM
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Re: ART: Pos-R vs Pos-P in training naive herding-breed dogs to herd

thanks for that
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goal behavior, herding breeds, herding lessons, instinctive desire, novice dogs, novice handlers, pos-P, pos-R

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