this is cross-posted with permission, thank U, susan!

we were debating the usual - dominance, force, punish, CM/DW... vs benevolent leader, manage, teach, pos-R...
on another group-list, when susan posted this - and i am so very proud of her for not simply quitting
on the pup, after quitting the force-based training.

dropping that pup off at the nearest shelter, and acquiring another - better, softer, normal - pup
[once U stop crying... :---( which can take awhile] is something plenty of folks do, every day of the year -
they are overwhelmed or just worn-out, and do not know What-To-DO! about this dog / pup.

i am heartsick that CM/DW has put dog-training back over 40-years; i was training my 1st-pup in 1964,
and he is WORSE by far than my then-mentor, a breeder + trainer of GSDs who had bitches with UDs -
virtually unheard-of at that time, as bitches were so hard to show around their heats, most breeders
never bothered competing them - estrus-suppressing hormones many pros use now, did not exist.


~~~~~~~~~~~ here is susan and her story ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Hi,
First of all - I am a true die-hard lurker on this group. This is my first post/reply.
I joined almost two years ago by accident - meaning I didn't know how to join groups, thought I was
joining another group, and voila didn't even know how I got here - BUT have been quietly here.

I have learned sooo much from this group and definitely the other one I meant to join. I have lurked here because everybody always seems sooo much more knowledgeable than me and I didn't have the answers
that I could post.

Short bio:
raised 3 large dogs on my own (husband Ret. Army, nuff said); two crossed over the Rainbow Bridge,
one is still going at 12+ years - YAY!
Never read (books, articles) about dogs; never hit them, I just let them BE.

Then came 8-week-old Max!
Sire: GSD, Dam: Rottweiler.
Highly reactive at 8-WO... BUT of course we didn't really want to see it when it was in our face, he guarded his food at the vet at 8-WO. That was the beginning of a long hard road to tow...

Took him at 10-WO to a training academy where they insisted we use a prong-collar and what we are now discussing, the infamous *#*# alpha roll. The nightmare began...

I have MS; genius that I thought I was, with too much of the WRONG information from a certain show -
I thought all would be well, HA, the Gods are still laughing over THAT.
At first, alpha rolling and pinning down a TERRIFIED puppy who weighed all of 10-15# (don't hold me to this -
it seemed to be his weight) at the time was HORRIBLE.
It felt wrong! It was hard for me and Max BUT we went back (slow learner at the time - me NOT Max)
and he grew fast AND I would do the HORRIBLE alpha roll - he would relax after awhile - I would let him up,
me exhausted and he would "nail" me good. Always!!! "Nail" me --
once?, shame on the method - BUT I didn't stop!
I went back crying and feeling like a failure with a now-bigger pup that was as hurt and confused as I was -
YES - I anthrpomorphize (sp?). )

I kept telling the 'torturer'... err so-called trainer - what am I going to do when he gets bigger?,
i.e. 120lbs (he is now 110#). "Won't he keep challenging me?"...
"Oh NO-O-oo once you establish who is alpha...", but Max did keep challenging.

I quit the *##* ...err, so-called trainer, got books, got on this group and the other one, who have really been there with good positive answers. I need them (books, both groups) because the damage between Max and I is an everyday struggle BUT the struggle is sooo much less with positive-training and TREATS -
he is - thank GODs - a bonafide TREAT-WHORE and will do anything for them. YAYAYAY!

We hired a positive-reinforcement dog-trainer and Max as my teacher. We've come a ways, don't think the learning with and about him will end BUT... it's all right now, with positive stuff.

Why would anyone have dogs and horses and the need to alpha-roll??? Something may be wrong with...
IMHO who braggs about that? ? ? Just sayin' )

Please newbies to this group
DO NOT TRY ALPHA ROLLS AND OTHER AVERSIVE BEHAVIORS AT ALL, EVER,
you lose their trust and the trust in your heart. That disclaimer should be on
THAT show.

Always before this there has been very helpful info with this group, sooo newbies hang in here -
it's a good resource.
- Susan and Max (my teacher).


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ end pasted-copy ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


thanks to susan for the courage to share her story in the first instance, and the kindness to let me cross-post it, as well.
it takes guts to admit that U did something wrong, especially when everyone around U is still saying,
No - U are right, the DOG is wrong, just keep it up, U;ll see...

the dog escalates their resistance and reactivity? we escalate punishment... and who stops the rising spiral?
and how badly must we or the dog be hurt, to see that this is dangerous, needless and a poor choice?

i am also sure that Max loves susan very much; he may still have flashbacks of momentary distrust,
but the trust will come; the love is already there. Good on ya, susan, for finding another way! > CLick! <

all my best,
--- terry

__________________
terry pride, APDT-Aus, apdt#1827, CVA, TDF
*wolves R wolves, dogs R dogs, + primates R us.*
tmp, sept-2007

bump......................

__________________
terry pride, APDT-Aus, apdt#1827, CVA, TDF
*wolves R wolves, dogs R dogs, + primates R us.*
tmp, sept-2007