hey, y'all -

i was just thinking about this, and Excuses be Gone! was playing on PBS -
Dyer remarked on *Virus of the Mind*, a book on memes, which are unquestioned norms
of culture, that we are infected by via parents, teachers, neighbors, etc.

Punishment is one of those mental-viruses.
it is an absolutely unquestioned assumption, that we MUST punish.
Why? what makes punishment so accepted, even promoted?

we are exposed to punishment early + often; parents often scold for touching the forbidden object,
rather than PUT the forbidden object out of bloody reach, for pitys sweet sake, Yeesh...
and MANAGEMENT is the last + least thing we think of, as a teaching tool.

but management comes FIRST -
good teachers in grade-school do NOT waste time, punishing every child singly for the inevitable -
they manage the environment, to shape the behavior of the CLASS as a whole toward the desired behavior -
and then they reward compliance, in the individual AND in the class as a group.

we can reduce our own stress, and that of others including our pets,
children, co-workers, neighbors, relatives, friends, and total strangers, EVERYbody...
by setting them up for success, REWARDing right choices,
and preventing wrong-choices from being the easy option.

make screwing-up difficult, and the Right Thing easy - then praise + reward.

life is so much easier, with less drama, less confrontation, + much more joy.
do not think about how to punish effectively...
Skip it! think about What U Want --- and how to GET that behavior.
if U focus on that, training becomes almost effortless - and learning is a happy thing.

cheers, and happy training,
--- terry

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terry pride, APDT-Aus, apdt#1827, CVA, TDF
*wolves R wolves, dogs R dogs, + primates R us.*
tmp, sept-2007

Absolutely. That's why I forbade the use of choke chains when I ran my classes. The choke chainn on it's own is not abusive but.... give a person a choke chain and they yank and tighten in an effort to CONTROL instead of learning how to train using their brains!

I am so for keeping stress levels down and it pains me to see people get so het up over such small things like not being toilet trained by 12 weeks old etc. Relax, take time, use patience, it will happen! Fuss, fret and get wound up and you will transmit that to the dog and it will fuss and fret too and get nowhere!

My dogs aren't allowed to go wrong because I am on hand to steer them gently in the right direction. There's no replacement for supervision and patience.

name at least 3 things - in 3 contexts - that make Right-Action easy,
and the Wrong-action difficult-enuf to be un-appealing.

i will go first, LOL... here is my first example:

* difficult client -
who refuses to admit that wrestling with their dog contributes to mouthing,
but endlessly bitches about the mouthing + biting AND * DUCKING -
because s/he has also been GRABBING * THE * COLLAR to... yup!...
punish the mouthing + biting... that THEY trigger.
oy, vey.... Vhat a meshugga, such a putz!

it is reaching the point where i do not want to see or speak to this person -
i find them so potently negative and adamantly determined to KEEP Doing the very behaviors
that are creating and maintaining the problem-behaviors, and the dog is the scape-goat.

but they are a client - i HAVE to see them, they have contracted my services.
i don;t wanna... ____ but i gotta.

how can i simultaneously make my client less aversive to myself...
and less punitive to their dog?

* my first thought - Improve the setting!
rather than meet at the clients home (where client + dog BOTH have habitual behaviors -
the owner falls into P+, the dog alternates acting-out + avoiding) -
we will meet at an outdoor cafe, and have a nice lunch.
i can enjoy my meal, and the day and place... if not the client, LOL.

* my second thought - Model the behavior!
if >> I << am handling the dog, the owner does not get the opp to punish -
and the dog! does not get the grabby invasive stim that makes them snappy,
nor will the dog rehearse dodging a reaching hand... there will be no instigating, and no P+ to avoid.

so i park the dog beside ME... on a mat - and proceed to lure them down, + reward the down/stay.
no cues, no pushing, no argument; the dog lies peacefully + alertly observes - getting a random treat
now + then for holding their position, watching passerby quietly.
i am verbally praising the dog, + smiling at the client; we are talking about stuff Other Than the dog -
happy stuff, personal + impersonal chit-chat. (yup, avoidance, LOL - la-la-la, i can;t hear U... )

* my 3rd thought - i will USE the environment FOR My support -
every other person stops to comment on the Good Puppy- and i agree, smiling,
+ refer them to the owner, who accepts the compliments. the CLIENT gets the credit
for the dogs good behavior - i say nothing but, yes, isn;t that wonderful? the puppy is theirs...
yes, such a good puppy... their dog... Yes, being very good!... and hasn;t begged once,
their puppy... yes, no barking at all... their puppy...
the client is seeing the dog thru OTHERs eyes, and is getting STROKES for the dogs good behavior.
this co$ts me very little - of course it would be nice to get some strokes myself, but i can enjoy the pup getting
praise, and being So Good. i can see the pleasure the CLIENT is getting, from the compliments -
and i can enjoy the anticipation of the client CHANGING their behavior, toward the pup!
"An-ti-ci-pay-shun, Anticipay-yay-shun... " it has not happened YET...
but it WILL.


* my 4th thought - after we have eaten, i will ask the CLIENT to manage + reward the dog... with no touch
whatever, PERIOD. =U lure the dog off the mat, i will move the mat; lure the dog ONTO the mat beside U,
lure the dog DOWN, + reward.= SHOW me how U would do this...
the client is PRACTICING the desired behavior, and i am there to help - Where to hold the lure, When to pay-out,
What if the pup gets grabby, What if the pup pops-up...


* my 5th thought - teach the dog ZEN, a-k-a Leave-it.
while the pup is lying by the client, i show the client HOW to do this, and teach the pup to DEFER -
let ** me ** (or anyone else) decide when, or if, that environmental reward is allowed;
PAY * THE * PUP * for the freely-surrendered opp to snatch a goody (dog-normal opportunistic behavior)
with an Even-Better!! goody.

~~~~~~~ less than an hour later - What have we accomplished? ~~~~~~
* we had a nice meal + some pleasant talk
* the client saw THEIR pup thru the filter of others eyes
* the client saw the pup ** managed for success ** + modeling good behavior
* the pup learned the bare rudiments of dog-zen
* the client saw me *manage + train without One Aversive *
* the puppy did not endure ONE 'correction' AKA punishment
* i did not have to bite my tongue, wince or flinch - not once! Yay!

* last of all - Ask the client if they learned anything new today? and Listen to the answer --
what did they get out of it? what did they SEE? how did they FEEL? the BEST learning
uses as many senses as possible - they SEE it, they FEEL it, they HEAR it, they SAY it -
conceptualize, question, demonstrate, practice - and REVIEW.

with this pre-plan, i feel much more prepared, far less negative, and i can even enjoy the prospect of our meeting!
cheers, and happy training!
--- terry

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terry pride, APDT-Aus, apdt#1827, CVA, TDF
*wolves R wolves, dogs R dogs, + primates R us.*
tmp, sept-2007

Goodness yes.... you are in charge of a little canine baby. Now.... it so happens that I have never had a human baby of my own but that doesn't mean I can't empathise. I do understand that it takes a lot of time and patience to house train a puppy and maybe my own parents were my best teachers here... all the pups we had when I was a kid were given a lot of space and gentle training (even if my human parents had the old rub-their-nose-in-it ideaology).

It does take time & patience and some learn faster than others. Merlin was my first dogbaby, even though we'd had several puppies when I lived at home.

I actually used clicker training with him to housetrain him and do you know, it works great.... you can tell him instantly when he's done well. Ignore the accidents (they will happen regardless) but be sure to reward and praise in the right place. I can't praise this method enough - it heaps showers of praise on the pup when he has done right, and every young creature wants to do right.

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bump...........

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terry pride, APDT-Aus, apdt#1827, CVA, TDF
*wolves R wolves, dogs R dogs, + primates R us.*
tmp, sept-2007

Hello- Just thought I'd say- excellent idea for a thread!
Reminds me very much of Karen Pryor's Don't shoot the dog and the idea of using positive reinforcement to not only train dogs but humans too!

I have to say I totally agree. The idea of punishment baffles me on a regular basis.
For me if a dog displays an undesirable behaviour, then I know that I need to work harder on teaching a "better" alternative behaviour and reinforcing it heavily, so that eventually it over-rides the old one due to the dog being more motivated to perform this new (heavily reinforced) behaviour.

Punishment of course stems from the idea of operant conditioning and the use of consequences to either reinforce a desirable behaviour or lessen/modify the frequency of another undesirable behaviour being performed.

I often wonder whether punishment is used because of the way that some owners humanize their dog's behaviour. Dominance enthusiasts for instance, will punish their dog for OTT/boucy/rude behaviours because they believe that the dog is "asserting it's authority" over them and trying to act in a dominant manner. The punishments from them that follow (alpha rolling/ grabbing...) is supposedly supposed to serve the purpose of the human asserting it's authority over the dog. When you think about this concept though, it certainly seems to me to be a VERY human idea.
Why would a dog even want to "assert it's authority" anyway? They don't want to take over the world! Sheesh
To want to "assert their authority" dogs would have to have some feeling of self/perception of self, which IMO they simply don't...
The following extract from Canine Dominance Revisited by David Appleby explains this idea further.
To my mind the main reason a dog would be performing OTT/bouncy/rude behaviours etc is because these behaviours would have been established as a habit and to the dog's mind would be acceptable behaviours (he's never been taught an alternative right? ). Punishment for these sorts of behaviours rather than looking at the cause and teaching an alternative would just cause confusion for the dog.

Another example of the humanizing of canine behaviour is when you hear the classic "well Fido knew he did wrong!".
Well actually... no he didn't. Dogs have no sense of morals or right or wrong. They just do what seems to be acceptable. In short- what they can get away with!
"So if he doesn't know it's wrong, how d'ya explain that guilty look he has on his face".
To me the sheepish/guilty look would just be the dog responding the owner's body language. Can you blame him if he's just been hollered at? Dogs are expert readers of body language too. They'll be able to tell that your not acting hunky-dory!

The other thing I have against punishment, is that it does nothing but oppress and freak the dogs out. Even worse if you've got a naturally timid, fearful or phobic dog. The poor thing will never learn to trust the owner if punishment and harsh handling methods are used. To the dog, the human becomes unpredictable.

Again- totally agree. I've found with my boy who can occasionally be a bit of a worrier- it's particularly important to keep stress levels super-low and keep the positives and calmness way higher Apart from anything else, stress in itself can be a huge factor in causing/encouraging other undesirable behaviours developing (chasing, chewing, barking to name but a few).

Anyway nuff said

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Libby would have heart failure even if someone shouted at her, she is a very nervy pup.
I dont use any punishment with the boys, i refuse to fight a 47kg dog, i would loose anyway haha.
90% of the time i try to be chilled with trainig, and if one of them doesnt do it, i know i have gone too far too soon, so we go back a step.
I say to Dalton "you can do better than that puppy" he wags his tail and we try again, i always finish any training on a positive note so they remeber we had fun
xx

hope that made sense, im having a great day so everything is all fuzzy haha

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Sarah xxx

agree with everyones posts! i dont really understand how in this day and age people can still think that punishment is the way to go!

whenever maggie does something that people would consider naughty - even if annoying!! - i look to myself and think whether or not i have taught her the right way to be, not punish her for doing the wrong thing, how would she ever learn??

makes me think of a couple of months back - we joined a new training class and they said they used only positive reward-based methods - we went to watch a class, all looked good...anyway, when we got there within first couple of lessons it became apparent that they were all old-school trying to pretend they were all positive and they were soooo not! they kept trying to make us buy their collar and leads which they were selling which were really thin leather slip collars, which i said i wouldnt use and they wanted to teach puppies as young as 10 weeks to walk to heel by jerking these !! i said i would stick to my hands-off clicker approach thank you and if i needed help would get a head collar and they didnt like that!

then a couple of weeks in, we were trying to stick with it and i had an accident where i couldnt walk properly and OH was away for the day, so maggie hadnt been for a walk all day but i wanted to take her to training - looking back on it stupid idea! got there and she was hyper and wouldnt listen properly - i knew it was my fault as she wasnt in the right mood for training...we had to do this off-lead bit and she did it fine, but then she wouldnt come back to the trainer after when she called her and so before i knew what was happening, she grabbed her by her collar (luckily a flat one not a slip one!) and dragged her across the hall with her front feet off the floor! she was only about 5 months old at this point - i felt terrible for putting her in that place and letting it happen!

needless to say there were some choice words exchanged at that point and we didnt continue the course...but how can these people call themselves trainers??!!

their dog school has loads of people going to it in the area as well and we see nearly everyone with a new puppy in the park near us with one of their bloody collars on!!! most worryingly of all, they teach other trainers how to train in positive reinforcement??? WTF!!!!!

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I agree with you totally I would never use physical punishment on a kid or a dog it sickens me that people still do these days

sorry got carried away and forgot to say - so if the trainers themselves are all like this, it is no wonder so many people train their dogs like this?!!

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