Trouble is, anyone can call themselves a dog trainer, a dog training instructor, a canine behaviourist, dog psychologist etc and set up a 'business', without any qualifications, experience or simple 'know-how'. The 'industry' is not regulated at all so all you need are the facilities to print out posters and leaflets (computer and printer will do) and a hall to rent if you are running classes.

Add to this the current popularity of a certain negative method 'trainer' and you will have people setting up to cash in on their dubious success no doubt, attacking the symptoms of dog problems without addressing the root cause, usually with quick fix, confrontational 'training' (very loose term!). <sigh>

If I were seeking a training class to attend, I would go alone with no dog at first, just to watch. You notice more without a dog to distract you.

thats why i felt so stupid!!! i did go on my own to watch!! they seemed really nice - i was a little wary as they had been doing training for 25 years and so i specifically asked them all lots of questions about how they had kept up with new training methods etc...and the class i watched was a beginners and they were all having lots of fun it seemed...and they hadnt tried to hard sell me the collar yet! and there were absolutely LOADS of people in our area singing their praises so i thought, lets give it a go...

as it was maggie was assessed on her first lesson and they decided that she needed to be in the advanced classes as we had already been to a good foundation puppy & graduate class when she was younger, so we got a different trainer...and i think i knew my mistake on the first lesson, but thought we should give them the benefit of the doubt...

...but hey, i guess you live and you learn and i know for sure i would never make that mistake again - i am just thankful that maggie doesnt appear to have any issues from what happened!

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re katieFranke


my WORD, katie -
yes, i can see why some highly-emotional, creative vocabulary was used!
i do NOT blame U a bit! i would also have asked for the balance of my fee back;
i might not get it, but i would ask, anyway! Shame on them...

unfortunately, just as U have observed, more + more punitive or harsh-handling trainers
are USING pos-R as a sales tactic - NOT as a training-tool.
this is leading to all sorts of problems, including horrified owners concluding that even
so-called 'Positive Reinforcement' is NOT humane...
i mean, if i witnessed that being done, even if the dog / pup belonged to a TOTAL stranger,
and was not my own much-loved pet... i would be not only appalled,
i would be convinced that these ppl are nuts, and training is off the menu.
my dog and i would be on our own, to get things in order as best we can.


and THAT is a very sad commentary on the fallout from these blatant sales tactics,
representing aversive tools and handling as *Positive reinforcement* when there is
a sh*tload more FORCE in the mix, than there ever is Re-In-Force-ment.

there are a lot of good, humane trainers around; sadly, there are ALSO a horde of Dog-Shouter-Wannabes, yanking, poking, choking, Tsst-ing, and generally being total doofuses with overly-analyzed PACK-psych energy twaddle, and strange habits...
like always eat before the dog.
nope -- dog eats first, AM + PM. i want them to have TIME to get that BM moving, and peristalsis cannot be accelerated, LOL...
there is no gas-pedal on a gut.

i want the dog EMPTY before i depart in the AM, and EMPTY before we retire in the PM - dog comfort demands no less.



re that training-school -
are the individual TRAINERS or the school itself, members of a PROFESSIONAL org?

if they are, i would report them to the org-adminstration -
i would also contact Consumer Affairs, or whoever oversees retail + consumer rights, where U are.
U may have the right to recover the un-used class-fee portion. And - they SHOULD be in trouble,
for false advertising - misrepresenting the quality and type of their service or product.

the Better-Business Bureau in the USA is a pretty poor resource -
they DUMP all their complaints, every THREE * YEARS, on the theory that the bizness may have changed hands,
new B-o-D, etc. well... Why not WAIT until they actually *Have* a significant CHANGE in mgmt or admin...
and THEN have an in-active file to retire the aged complaints, not a trashcan-file?!

sorry that U and Ur pup had that bad experience -
does she seem to have gotten over it? i hope so!

happy training, pat that sweet puppy!
--- terry

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terry pride, APDT-Aus, apdt#1827, CVA, TDF
*wolves R wolves, dogs R dogs, + primates R us.*
tmp, sept-2007

re caroline -

i call the TV-Personality a Handler - as he has repeatedly and ACCURATELY stated,
* i am not a trainer... * (yup - got it in one... )


so i would re-phrase this:
this avoids anointing him with the Sacred Oil of 'trainer' as a sobriquet...

cheers,
--- terry

__________________
terry pride, APDT-Aus, apdt#1827, CVA, TDF
*wolves R wolves, dogs R dogs, + primates R us.*
tmp, sept-2007

Thanks Terry, luckily Maggie doesnt seem to have been affected by it - she has had so much socialisation that luckily the good experiences she had before and has had since must far outweigh the one negative one...

...you know, i didnt make any sort of formal complaint at the time, as i just wanted it over...but i think i might actually write to them now and also report them - as clearly it is completely false advertising! It was only a couple of months ago so hopefully not too long ago...

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I think that, like it or not, aversion/punishment CAN often work more quickly than reward. It makes sense - punishment (hot stove burns, sniffing Porcupine hurts like buggery) is bound up with survival.

Before humans evolved language, that's pretty much all we had. A Neanderthal mother isn't going to spend an hour trying to explain to her Neanderthal child, via the medium of cave drawings, why he shouldn't poke a sleeping Brontosaurus*.

However, that's not to say that now we understand more about reward, counter-conditioning etc etc, we shouldn't use kinder methods whether we're training animals or children. It's ethics, isn't it?

*Yes I know Dinosaurs and Man didn't exist together but you get the idea.

Accentuate the positive - eliminate the negative!!

Too many corrections get you flustered and the same to your dog.

I won't drive the car with my other half in it unless I really have to, as he is so negative about my driving, that I do actually become a really bad driver when he is the passenger!

I also remember learning my decimals at school, the teacher kept shouting at me for being so stupid - I used to cry and shut down (well I was only 6 or 7), I couldn't even think properly - even now, give me a sum under pressure and I go back into the same mode! Exactly the same with a dog and children. I shaped my daughter as I did my dogs and she is a delight to be with - only had one tantrum in her whole life - downside is, she is very very confident and sure of herself - but hey you don't get anywhere in this world by being quiet!!

A good exercise in a class (I used to do this on every new intake of dogs) ....

Two people go out the room and everyone else decides what task you are going to ask one of them to do (i.e. stand on a particular chair in a corner). When they come in you are not allowed to tell them, but just let them wander around the room. Each time they get it wrong i.e. move away from the target, everyone shout negatives - NO, Bad etc. Within a few minutes the person will be flustered and not able to move very far - certainly won't be anywhere near achieving the goal.

Second person comes in - same scenario - only everyone can only shout positives - Yes, Good Job etc. I guarantee you within five minutes they will almost, if not always achieve the goal....

Try it!

Kate

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Just because I can't talk, doesn't mean you can't understand me

re k8t -

i LIKE this...
i am going to try it on my next group...
(i have only ever done the pos-R part, not the pos-P half.)
thanks!
--- terry

__________________
terry pride, APDT-Aus, apdt#1827, CVA, TDF
*wolves R wolves, dogs R dogs, + primates R us.*
tmp, sept-2007