BBC Breakfast -
BBC News - Breakfast - The Dog Whisperer's UK Tour

the clip of him stuffing a Frenchie butt-first thru the storm-door of a trailer full of crowding, eager, stranger-dogs...
which is APPALLINGLY rude to the poor dog who is helpless in his hands, and a very-real potential injury risk for that dog,
or the others (the dog stuffed in their faces is dog-aggro!), is incredible; he then asserts with a straight face! that
.

i do not see surrender - which is willingly trusting submission -
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when Cesar goes to put him down, the dog is so frightened that at first he makes NO * ATTEMPT to stand on his rear-legs,
he keeps them retracted like a planes landing-gear, folded deep into his belly. he actually *lands* on his HOCKS, not his paws,
and only stands when he nearly falls-out the open door of the trailer, and catches his balance as he teeters on his forehand.

i see extreme tension, with tail clear under his butt, rump tucked, back roached, ears laid flat on his skull, and he is
up on his toenails (vs standing on his pads / feet) - U can hear his nails scrabble, as he touches-down and tries to leap
clear out of the doorway - and i cannot blame him in the least, i would bail, too. Miles entire body is so contracted,
his forepaws nearly touch under his barrel chest.

while Cesar is narrating to the camera, i am watching the nasty byplay between the dogs - an English bully is being
very overbearing, head high, hard stare, mouth closed, shoulder-bump, hip-check, CM is completely oblivious,
the Frenchie is frozen rock-solid, looking like a grenade with the pin pulled...
that terrible stillness before everything goes boom.
what saves the situation is the Bulldog -
who loses his balance as he shoves the Frenchie, with butt on one step and froggy chest on the lower-step; he hurtles
out of the door of the trailer to the ground with the grace of a bowling-ball, lands on his feet, and now looking UP at
the Frenchies face and teeth, he is suddenly not so sure he wants to take him on - which is just fine with Miles,
who starts to breathe again. ~whew~

they cut back to the studio, where Cesar says...
really?
i have never yet seen any dog approach another in reverse -
How have i missed this huge telltale in body-language?!
i would have sworn i should have noticed that...

besides which, even if that were true - which IMO it is not -
if i FORCE the issue by PUTTING the dogs rear to another dogs face,
the dog in my hands is not giving anything -
and Miles had shown no interest whatever in *making friends*.


my take -
i cannot make 2 dogs become bosom-buddies by jamming any part of their anatomies together;
dogs are not Legos. if they want to buddy-up, they will; no amount of forcing on my part can help.
OTOH if i really want to give dog friendship a chance, having the dogs approach As Polite Dogs Would,
If Off-Leash - in wide arcs with lots of side-on display and open body language ---
Then!, i may have some positive influence on their introduction.



next stop: *steve wright* BBC radio-2
BBC - BBC Radio 2 Programmes - Steve Wright in the Afternoon, 25/11/2009

the episode was on 25/11/09 and begins at 2:38:00 -
its only available for 5 more days, so listen-up if U wanna catch it.

i found it very interesting that he separates owner(s) and dog - i;ve never had a problem yet
with the owners being present, in fact i want them there: i often have THEM handle their dog
while i direct, or i model, then they mimic, and i tweak.

there are a few exceptions, but they are rare - dogs who RG owners, or are clingy and become more defensive
as U near their handler. even in these cases, i want the owner(s) there to see what we can do to help the dog
to relax, stand down, and tolerate a stranger. accommodating the dog is part and parcel of the process -
and there are no secrets, i do the same things with the dog, whether the owner is there or not.

dog-training is not a secret - nor is it Cesars instinct that gives him a mysterious hold over dogs.
dogs learn just like dolphins, chickens, horses, humans and birds. they discover what behaviors pay-off,
which have bad consequences, and which are pointless. then they repeat the rewarding ones...
Simple. Elegant, even.

Ur job as a trainer, should U accept it, is to design the dogs learning process to be as goof-proof
as possible. make the behaviors that U want, rewarding; make UN-wanted behaviors difficult or
impossible to accomplish (management), UN-rewarding (extinction), or teach an incompatible
preferred behavior.
Simple. Elegant, even.

beauty is truth, and truth, beauty - that is all we know, and all ye need to know.
good dog-training is not just a pretty result - it is a process of beauty.
if its ugly - its wrong. Simple. Elegant, even...

--- terry

__________________
terry pride, APDT-Aus, apdt#1827, CVA, TDF
*wolves R wolves, dogs R dogs, + primates R us.*
tmp, sept-2007

Have you read any of his books which give you the whole theory behind what you see on the shows?

yes, hutch - i have.
and to quote a certain testy Brit, We are not amused.

when i say We...
i am speaking as a proxy for multitudinous pos-R trainers around the world, who find dominance, aversives,
harsh handling, needless confrontation, and other accoutrements of this style of handling to be damaging,
both to dogs and their relations with humans. i am Not! using the royal-We to refer to myself -
but to my fellow pos-R trainers, and myself. we do not find Cesars methods or philosophy amusing,
but scientifically incorrect and often disturbing.


speaking for myself only -
as a certified vets-assistant and experienced animal-nurse, i find watching an animal under
deliberately-induced high-stress to be a form of masochism for myself, and inhumane to the animal.
watching a dog struggle to breathe after their airway has been shut-off?
try to bolt while being flooded with stimuli they cannot tolerate?
shake uncontrollably, or lose bladder control?

Cesar says he is not a trainer - he is right.


best regards,
--- terry

__________________
terry pride, APDT-Aus, apdt#1827, CVA, TDF
*wolves R wolves, dogs R dogs, + primates R us.*
tmp, sept-2007

WOW

You really have gone to a lot of trouble with this!

Kate

__________________
Just because I can't talk, doesn't mean you can't understand me

regarding the question if he thinks hanging a dog is cruel....

he answered "depends how u do it" what a great answer

hmmm... i am only aware of one way of hanging dogs and thats lifting them by the lead (he used a slip lead i have seen before!!!) so high up until the dog cant touch the ground with its feet

Wow! Have you been watching the 'Dog Whisperer' Terry?

People seem to be so hypnotised by his drawl and his dazzling smile that they totally fail to see the way the dog is reacting. He is on TV = He is THE MAN to some gullible souls unfortunately. He put HIMSELF forward for TV! He marketed himself with an attractive 'angle' 'I am a dog whisperer.' 'I have a special way with dogs' and National Geographic fell for it hook, line and sinker despite being cautioned against him! Andrew Luescher, DVM, on Cesar Millan To them it is good TV? Maybe they know zilch about dog training then!

I found the site of the Original Dog Whisperer last night. Now this man looks more like a trainer! Paul Owens Dog Whisperer| Dog & Obedience Training

But that is just it. A philosophy or someone's theroy on something isn't initially scientific an not can it be fact.

There are plenty of therories, philosophies and beliefs in every aspect of life i don't agree with that affect things I feel compassionately about but I don't rant on about them or look into every finite detail to pick fault, there is fault with everythign anyone ever does in regard to everything with no exceptions becasue we all do things differently, see things differently, interperet things differently, we are all different.

If there is one thing, just one thing three dog trainers will agree on it is that the fourth trainer's methods are wrong.

For all the bad that CM has done which I am sure he will burn in eternity for if you so wish just look at how many new threads are started on here a week with things like "MY dog does this is it dominance?" "My dog does this what can I do?" "I think my dog might X, Y and Z. What should I do?" and ther are all new members that have signed up just to ask these questions. They are recognising that there is a solution, that they haven't bought a "rubbish dog", they want to further understand their dog, they don;t see it as "Just his personality" and they get three or four differnet methods to try out every single thread. I have never seen one thread along these lines wher someone has said "Oh I saw this on CM/DW. I 'll send yout the DVD to show you what he does" or "Check out this youtube clip." Instead they are all well written, thoughtful explainations with easy steps for the OP to follow.

So on underneath all of these methods that come out of the woodwork there is an underlying river of constant "CM nit pickers".

You all watch his programmes yet you can't stand him or don't believe his theories and yet not once have you said "He got that one spot on". He can't be wrong all of the time just like everyone on here can't be right all of the time.

I take what he says and does with a pinch of salt because I know what sells a TV programme and how people can get carried away with their own theories on things.

Has anyone who opposes CM actually made documented footage of any work they have done, sent it to a TV station and said "Here, look how I do it?"

I am bored of this now so I'll leave you to your "Angel or Demon" debate.

hey, caroline! :--)

watching Cesar hang, poke, drag, push, (and fold spindle and perforate)
is at least as much fun as being staked on an ant-hill in full sun.
~ sigh ~

*paul owens* OTOH actually deserves the title whisperer -
he is not only very good, but a very-humane trainer.

ppl think that Cesar dreamt-up the name;
= whisperers = of various sorts have been around for centuries, they were the folks who could calm a frightened animal,
get a cast horse to make one more effort, catch a runaway, mother an orphan onto another dam, and so on.

they were the folks who took the time to understand the species Umvelt, and work within their point-of-view,
using touch, soft sounds, familiar postures, and so on. Cesar claims to do this, but it is only a claim.
(just as one example, dogs do not present their rears to strange dogs that they would like to befriend, good grief...)

i find it very sad that Cesar has actually tainted this title, which was a byword for kind, knowledgeable handling,
and training without physical force or emotional coercion -- a far, far cry from Cesar and his handling.

i wish he had chosen something else - ANYthing else. it reminds me of Orwells 1984 -doublespeak- ,
the government-mandated terms that meant their virtual opposite!

more muddy communication,
--- terry

__________________
terry pride, APDT-Aus, apdt#1827, CVA, TDF
*wolves R wolves, dogs R dogs, + primates R us.*
tmp, sept-2007

hey, hutch! :--)

that is a good joke, but not a truism - i can name any number of fellow pos-R trainers that i feel comfortable referring a client to, confident that the pet-owner will get good hands-on modeling, safe instructions, and humane advice.

for Cesars fans, the hammer that they all grab to smack pos-R trainers with is their favorite verbal-smackdown,
U;ve never even WATCHED him...

well, i have -
and unlike the fans, i notice the small stuff - like the shock-collar no one mentioned, like the scat-mat no one mentioned,
like the remote in his pocket to zap the dog. i have to watch the show in order to explain to a pet-owner who has
no idea what Cesar is doing, or why the dog is reacting, what is actually going on.

i cannot explain that JonBee lost bladder-control if i did not see it - or that Kane left sweaty paw-prints
rubber-stamping the lino in the hallway, all the way to the classroom door (a sign of enormous stress).


i did not say that he was -
i said that most often, when what Cesar SAID was correct, he was quoting hoary truisms. his handling is, however, mostly wrong. flooding, hanging, poking, jerking, and so on, are not only un-necessary, they are counter productive and create an adversarial relationship.

Cesars influence via TV and other media is so enormous and pervasive, that i am seeing
more aversive tools, and more extremely-harsh handling, than i can recall in my life.
bear in mind that i began training my first pup in 1964 - the clicker revolution was a long, long, long way off.
yet i cannot remember ever seeing so many ppl jerk, poke, scruff, roll, etc, their dogs, even very young pups,
as i do now. everything is seen as a palace coup, a threat to the Universal Order of mans dominion over beasts...
~ ptui ~

dogs are not the new terrorists - they are still dogs.
best regards,
--- terry

__________________
terry pride, APDT-Aus, apdt#1827, CVA, TDF
*wolves R wolves, dogs R dogs, + primates R us.*
tmp, sept-2007