I understand what you're saying especially when you have a hound with a thin head, my post was aimed at L4L post, and I'm still interested in her reply re; the tightness up and around the neck.

I've never had to use a martingale, (rescued a dog with a half check and took it straight off I don't like them personally) or choke chains, and I do feel sad that people are using martingales like a choke.

I would only use halti harness, mekuti or a double ended lead/2 leads attached to collar and harness and that's my personal preference.

__________________
Use your brain, not a choke chain.

re post #25 - london-dogwalker


hey, walker! :--)

i frankly doubt that any one area of the dogs neck is vastly more-sensitive to pain than another - a matter of inches up or down, does not make the diff in the dog reacting with a flinch, yelp, instant compliance, etc, vs ignoring the stim of a choke or prong, in my many years of observation.
necks are sensitive in general, period.
if the stim hurts in one area, that same level of stim hurts in another.

also, just b/c Cesar happens to use the same adjustment, does NOT mean it is automatically evil - - i would bet he also adjusts a body-harness so that it is flat + snug, with minimal roll to either side. so do i - - so does every trainer or handler i know!
is it a conspiracy? LOL - no, that is how they are spozed to be worn, to prevent chafing + minimize the chance of pinching flesh.

a martingale collar is not painful, even when flat + snug -- any more than a buckled watchband is painful. i wear my watch snug-enuf that it does not rotate on my wrist, and when i am wearing it, i often have to *Look* to see that its there... since bodies habituate to any constant stim.

the diff between that junction of neck + skull, and the neck lower-down, is that it is narrower. because of the diffs between horse + dog anatomy, we cannot get a collar to sit on the narrowEST area of the neck, in a dog, as the throatlatch of a bridle sits on a horse - we can at best, get within a few inches.

the other valuable diff re that high-point on the dogs neck is that i can use MINIMAL force to control or direct - as i have mechanically increased my leverage.
by using the upper-end of the dogs neck as the control point, i have simultaneously reduced the DOGs leverage of muscle + body-mech, and improved my own; the dog can no longer throw the entire power of all four legs, lower-neck and torso into re-directing their body against my control via the leash. it is no longer a matter of my using brute force to control or direct - now i can use finesse. MUCH easier, all around - less yanking or arm straining, more compliance and less resistance!


martingales are called limited-slip or limited-choke; they cannot close to infinity, shutting-off the airway. they can close at maximum only half the length of the short-loop, meaning the dog can only have their airway cut-off if they are *suspended* by the collar, not merely by pressure on the leash, whether the dog pulls or the human pulls.

i also use martingales SIZED to the dog - at least as wide as a vertebra, for safety, so that it is impossible for the collar to slide between vertebrae + injure the spine / nerves, even if the dog bolts + hits the end of the leash with force.
U have probably noticed that skinny slip-collars look like no big deal, after all they are fabric, they are less likely to pull hair or trap skin painfully than a chain-choke, running over the neck as it tightens.
yet dogs react rapidly to a narrow nylon-slip pulling shut - Why?
because the narrow stricture is thus concentrated over a small area, the force is targeted narrowly and is made more painful, as well as burying the slip into the dogs soft-tissue with the force -- which can be very clearly seen on any short-coated dog with a hefty neck, a skinny slip-collar can be an inch or more beneath the surface of the dogs neck when tightened on say a Lab or Mastiff.

a martingale, especially one SIZED apropos to the dog, runs == over == the dogs neck, with any force or pressure distributed across a wide area, and never sinks subsurface or puts deep pressure on soft-tissue.
ergo, while it is highly effective as restraint, it is not painful.

as for the particular Dog in Question, this dog is a practiced escape artist; they are already adept at stepping or puling back with sudden force, to EXTRACT their head + neck from any ordinary collar.
martingales were designed to stay on *sighthounds*, who have skinny necks without much taper, and skinny backskulls w/o much wedge. the collars stay on b/c the martingale can be adjusted to be smaller than that negligible difference in circumference, between top-of-neck, and back-of-skull.
they were not intended to be worn dangling half-way to the chest, altho for some bizarre reason, even sighthound-owners seem to think this is correct - or gentler, or some such twaddle.

ANY loose-collar, even a martingale, can be backed out of by dropping the head, folding ears, shaking their head slightly, and pulling their neck + head back as they step backward - a dog who is practiced can perform these gymnastics in an eye-blink, especially if they are frightened or unwilling to go where we are headed - into the house, into the vets office, out of the park, etc.

on this dog, with their prior history of repeated escapes from many collars, a snug + high martingale may mean the diff between keeping the dog on-leash, and having the dog career off at 30-mph under their own sweet will... which is doggone dangerous.

JMO and IME - Ur mileage may vary!
cheers,
--- terry

__________________
terry pride, APDT-Aus, apdt#1827, CVA, TDF
*wolves R wolves, dogs R dogs, + primates R us.*
tmp, sept-2007

No it is, the higher on the dog's neck the more sensitive it is. This is why you're told to fit choke chains higher as if they are around the bottom of the neck the punishment isn't severe enough, and you end up pulling tighter. Higher on the neck = less effort for a lot more pain. Victoria Stillwell mentioned it in a programme of hers, and it's one of the reasons I'm so against the illusion collar, it tries to hide as a good training collar but it hurts the dog as much as a choke!

yes but you're talking about the martingale fighting tight, and then pulling more, aren't you having a checking effect by definition?

I do get what you mean about that particular dog, I'm against +punishment and like to find out people's reasons for/against.

I'm not having a go at you by the way, I think it's really useful to try and discuss these things without people being offensive. I'm not a qualified trainer or behaviourist just a behaviour student and a dogwalker, and admit I have loads to learn! (MSc here I come rofl )

__________________
Use your brain, not a choke chain.

re post #34 - london-dogwalker



hey, walker! :--)

no need to apologize, i do not feel persecuted, LOL, ppl can disagree without getting paranoid or wildly defensive - it is inevitable that folks disagree about some things, it may be a tool, a method, a philosophy. we all have things that work well for us, and that others may not like or find useless or objectionable.

*victoria* is a fellow-APDT-USA-nik, and while i think she is light-years beyond CM + his heavy-handed + dominance-driven HANDLING (remember, it is Not Training, Cesar says so, and i agree with him, LOL), i also think *victoria* is not always right...
yes, gasp, choke, splutter, its true!
shock + awe, OK take a deep breath, are U all right? steady on...

one place where we disagree is the need to EAT before the dog(s) - let alone eat from a S/S dog-bowl, LOL. that IMO was sheer over-dramatization by the director, and i find that dogs do not give a hoot when humans eat, they care about when THEY get to eat, LOL, and before, after or simultaneous with humans are all just ducky, thanks!

the reason we are often told to put chokes + slips /\ up-high /\ on the neck is purely and simply because it is mechanically advantageous - not because it is merely painful lower, and agony higher!
the point of a choke or slip collar is RESTRAINT + Added Control -
just as a Gentle Leader or Halti or other headcollar delivers better control with less brute force, and for the same reason:
it gives more leverage, and directs the dog from a *higher* and * weaker* point on the dogs spine and neck.
((a prong or chain-choke can add pain, but all of them, prongs, chokes + slip collars, add punishment to the restraint,
and a narrow slip-collar when used harshly can be even -more-painful- than a prong which is used with care.
However, as i abjure * all three * AND shock in any form, this is simply an academic point of info.))


the lower the collar - ANY collar, even a tag-collar - the less control, because the dog now has the massy musculature of their lower-neck + shoulders, plus the driving force of their hindlegs thru their torso, to bring into use.
they can literally throw their weight into the body-mechanics.

a dog, like a horse, does not PULL a load - they actually push it - and a padded horse-collar type harness was once used on dogs when they drew carts, putting the weight of the cart on their shoulders and having the rear-end provide the impulsion to propel the cart.
the reason they switched to a rear-clip harness was because dogs being so much smaller than horses, the sheer weight of the padded horse-collar made the dogs in harness TIRE faster than they would, without carrying the extra weight on their shoulders - so they took off the weight.
with a cart to carry the direct weight, and the dog only providing impulsion to move it on wheels or runners or skids, the task is much-easier, and the dog can move more weight, pound for pound, than a horse.

this is why REAR-attachment harnesses are for weight-pulling,
and Not For Control Or Restraint - because when the dog wears a body harness that clips at the rear, ALL of the body-mechanics now give the dog even greater leverage vs a leash on an ordinary buckle-collar.

since the average ordinary dog is 3-times the strength of a human, pound for pound, also has 4-wheel drive and is low to the ground, they *already!* have huge advantages over human anatomy vis-a-vis our upper body strength - so it behooves us to take any advantages on-offer, IMO, LOL.

if U have taken any gymnastics, U are aware that where the nose goes, the body follows - this same rule applies to dogs, and the closer to their extremity we place our control-point, the more leverage + control we can exercise, while at the Same Time, we can employ Less Force - which IMO is far kinder than putting the collar or harness lower on the body, and having to haul with might + main to either control / restrain, or direct the dog in any way.

so a big-powerful dog on a headcollar can be guided with only one finger, and controlled with one hand, even if they are having a minor hissy-fit.
controlling that big-powerful dog on a high-martingale is somewhat more effort physically, but still safe for a small woman of average fitness - not a fat, inactive or physically-disabled person; a moderately active adult who has normal musculature + does something besides sit, LOL. (the primary advantage of the martingale over the headcollar is that the martingale is immediate use; the headcollar requires habituation, which takes time.)
controlling that same over-100-pound dog on a REAR-clip harness would be not only nearly impossible, but also rapidly exhausting.

i have successfully handled 120# dog-aggro dogs on a high-martingale, and no dog was in distress at any time; since the climate here is soggy with humidity, it is absolutely essential that EVERY dog have a clear airway and good air-flow, to allow them to control their body-temp.
stress, excitement and physical exercise all mean more panting, and more heat to be dissipated - thus i have to be able to work with the dog, while safely restraining them (from chasing a squirrel, biting the jogger, or lunging at the nearest dog...), and NOT get them heat-stressed or over-aroused.

so to sum it up in simplest terms - body-mechanics is the reason for a high collar, and why a headcollar is effective + gentle power-steering, even on big dogs, even on dogs who are acting-out violently.

i can lead a 1-ton bull with a headcollar, or a 1200# horse ;
so IMO as a purely practical matter, there is no sense in putting a horse-collar equivalent on a dog (a low-down tag-collar or martingale, or a REAR-clip body-harness), and letting them drag us about, while we struggle to control the series of situations the dog takes us, willy-nilly, into...
way too much emotional and physical stress, LOL, on both parties!

cheers, and no hard feelings,
--- terry

__________________
terry pride, APDT-Aus, apdt#1827, CVA, TDF
*wolves R wolves, dogs R dogs, + primates R us.*
tmp, sept-2007