Evolution of dog training « The Dish by Darcie


CM edits the reality:
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it seems Cesar is trying to make his process *look* more positive - but failing to TELL the viewer that U are using
ShOcK! is leaving out a critical bit of info, it is lying by omission - This is not appropriate, as the APO viewer has no
way to understand what they do not recognize, and not mentioning this highly-salient tidbit is *cheating*.
Average Pet-Owners are not stoopid, but the details of body-lingo can slide right by them, and being misled by
a supposed PRO is unfair. if U are using ShOcK!, at least have the guts to admit it - and *explain it*.
Why is it needed? WHAT does it do?

and for a dog who was apparently seriously and self-destructively suffering from separation-anxiety,
ShOcK! is neither helpful nor apropos - as being ZAPPED does not help to relax anybody.
bad call, Cesar - poor choice of tools, only ramping-up the dogs stress. What will the dog do now? my bet would be take the interior of the house apart - as approaching the door or window is now punishing, eating the sofa might ease his angst. shredding the carpet, no-stop barking, a lick-granuloma... the choices of high-stress grounding + self-soothing behavior are endless!
better living thru electricity... NOT!

JMO + IME - Ur mileage may vary!
--- terry

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terry pride, APDT-Aus, apdt#1827, CVA, TDF
*wolves R wolves, dogs R dogs, + primates R us.*
tmp, sept-2007

was this on the new series?? i know he did use a shock on one in the new series but he explained about it and then used it on a crew member then put it on a chair to show that all it did was vibrate (a bit like a mobile).... didnt seem that bad to me, maybe a different episode...

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Cesar used ShOcK! as early as the first-season, and again - NEVER mentioned or explained it.
remember the M-shepherd with the Hispanic lady, who would not allow her husband to handle or walk the dog?
and their Himalayan cat -- the cat that the dog wanted to chase, and possibly hurt or kill?
the scene in the bedroom, with the cat crated - the dog suddenly yelps, flinches, tries to bolt or hide, is very agitated
nd BITES * HIS *F-Owner ----- this is a clear example of re-directed aggro, which is a common subsequent response from a dog who is being, lets face it, both physically hurt (pain) and startled; reaction is to be expected!
and the dog cannot be blamed. the person PUSHING the button, CAUSED the bite.

this article refers to the most-recent show, immediately prior to the date on the Dish! article.
cheers,
-- terry

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terry pride, APDT-Aus, apdt#1827, CVA, TDF
*wolves R wolves, dogs R dogs, + primates R us.*
tmp, sept-2007

I can't watch him any more. He makes me throw things at the screen.

i think i remember that one but didnt notice the shock... but i suppose that was the whole point!! lol

to me shock collars are ok, as a last resort and only if your taught how to use it by a confident proffessional... obviously other training methods should be attempted fully 1st.

shock collars dont hurt... i'v had one on me lol

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Me too - thankfully he's only on cable now and I don't have cable! They are trying to ban his shows being shown at all in in Italy.

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re post#5 - sid&kira

>> shock collars dont hurt... i'v had one on me lol <<


a salient point:
pain is a subjective experience, which can vary considerably between individuals of the same species, gender + age.
the same stimulus that i find mildly uncomfy can be very painful to another person.
since we cannot determine a dogs rating of a particular stim by asking them to rank it, Zero to 10,
we have difficulty determining what hurts any individual dog, and How Much it hurts any individual dog.
>> I << can tell U what it feels like - the dog cannot.
by the time a dog reacts VOCALLY to pain, the pain may be very severe, indeed!
most dogs tend to be stoic, so long as they are not distressed or frightened at the same time that a painful
stimulus is experienced - fear + anxiety increase the perception of pain/lower the threshold of response.

do U grant that is correct, so far?... or do U disagree?


secondarily, this is *not* a smart remark - please do not take it as such,
as i assure U, i am asking a very genuine Q - and not a trick Q, either:
If shock from a shock-collar does =Not= hurt the dog...
Then how do shock-collars, shock-mats, + shock-fences =work=?
IOW - what do they Do, and Why do they get the (hopefully) desired result?
This is a Q for anyone who uses shock in any form, to explain their perception of its mode of action.

these shock-devices are not used to *reward*, correct? since they are applied as a *consequence* of an UNdesired behavior,
they would logically Not be a reward, as these are not behaviors we wish to elicit or increase.


* consequences *
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we can reward behavior, ignore behavior, or punish behavior.
Not Noticing behavior can effectively ** punish ** a desired or desirable behavior, simply b/c if we do not even =Notice= the desired-behavior, we Cannot reward it. an example of inadvertently Punishing a desired behavior by Not-noticing is to Fail signally to reward Ur DH, child, DW, etc, for doing Something above-and-beyond the call of duty... Or doing something SPONTANEOUSLY that U usually must ask or remind them to do. we all can think of common examples: the kids clean-up the living room on sheer impulse, and we do not even comment... DH takes out the trash, which normally requires 3 please-honeys and 2 notes... and it goes Right Past us, unremarked. What happens? they do not tend to repeat behavior that is not rewarded; we have MISSED a significant opportunity to reinforce Freely-Offered compliant behavior. ooops...


Not-Noticing behavior can also *permit* that behavior to continue, but only if the behavior is SELF-rewarding.

something must reward behavior, for the behavior to continue.
a barking-dog will not continue barking, expending energy, if they get *nothing* out of the behavior. sadly for us humans, barking happens to be a self-rewarding behavior for any number of vocal breeds and individuals. ergo, even if we ignore it, self-rewarding barking will persist.

failing to get *anything* desired or desirable from a behavior will extinguish the behavior. being *punished* for a behavior, whether that is environmental, administered or co-incidental, will extinguish a behavior.

an example of an environmental punishment is a cacti-ignorant dog, running heedlessly over low-growing cacti, and having multiple painful spines in poked into tender parts- Ow-wow-wow! :---(
the dog will rapidly conclude that running over-or-into cacti is a Bad Thing to Do.

a co-incidental punishment is one which is accidentally associated:
MerlinsMum mentioned an incident where a dog was badly startled by stacked buckets in front of a shop, falling over as an already-suspicious + anxious dog passed by; the dog continued to react with trepidation every time the dog passed by that shop for many, many months thereafter-- despite the fact that the accidental punishment never recurred.

an example of an administered punishment can be environmental, or direct:
i can cause the environment to punish the dog FOR me -- i put mouse-traps under newspaper on the sofa, before i leave the house.
when the dog leaps onto the sofa for a snooze, or to continue chewing that nifty spot in that back-cushion, the mouse-traps snap shut; the dog is unhurt, but startled.
another environmental punishment is a scat-mat, using ShOcK! to punish the dog for setting-foot in a specific place, or touching a specific object. (putting a scat-mat on the sofa, in front of the bird-cage, etc).

a *direct* punishment is one in which >> I << do the punishing, on the spot.
that is where i place ShOcK, Prongs, a time-out from an enjoyed activity, and other consequences the dog does not desire.
if ShOcK does not belong in this category of either environmental or direct Positive Punishment --- What category would U place it in?

thanks in advance for any informative replies!
cheers,
--- terry

__________________
terry pride, APDT-Aus, apdt#1827, CVA, TDF
*wolves R wolves, dogs R dogs, + primates R us.*
tmp, sept-2007

yea thats a good point, i suppose we cant tell the pain threshold of a dog, as they dont usually express pain (at least not like we do) until it is severe (or they're a wimp) as they dont want to appear weak.

i gotta admit i wouldnt use it on kira, i dont need to, and there are alternative methods that can be used beforehand

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