John, when presented with dogs with an aggression issue for which the cause has not been identified and which don`t respond to behavioural therapy, which health tests do you insist need to be done before proceeding or better still which health tests, [ in detail ], do you advise be done before getting to work with them in the first place ?

TIA

Edited to add, I notice the collar you sell is much like the Illusion collar which works on the principal of restricting air supply due to the positioning under the jaw and the intensely painful spots behind the ears - the same positioning you describe for your collar, the Illusion collar gains control through pain, please can you explain how [ and if ] yours differs please ?

Got to mention also, I have to take issue with your long line video, no dog should ever be on a long line attached to collar, only ever to a suitable harness.
Any dog on a long line might spook or spot something to head after, whether a usually predictable dog or one just starting out on basics training, hitting the end of a long line at speed with it attached to collar has the potential for causing major and possibly fatal throat, neck and spinal damage, even more so than one straining on a standard lead or being jerked, on any collar type.
The only safe way with a long line is a correctly fitted wide banded harness, [ the wider the better, and padded is even better ], through which speed impact is dissipated evenly to avoid injury and which enables the dog to maintain better balance.
I strongly urge you to re-think the video with this in mind because you know people will try at home what you are showing, that`s why you sell instructional DVDs after all.

I don`t personally feel it`s appropriate nor responsible to sell something as advice which carries serious injury potential

I don't know how to put this politely but based on the opinions you have and the information you have that formed them it appears that your understanding of dog physiology and behaviour isn't advanced enough to carry on a discussion that would benefit you. You also seem to be a very negative person for someone that believes in all positive so I'll agree to disagree. Maybe someday we can meet face to face for a more accountable dialog.

John

re post #13 - johnWade



hey, john! :--)

the above is not addressed to me, but i will take up the Q -
that is an amazingly patronizing statement, that *patch* lacks the needed
comprehension of dog-physio + k9-behavior that would make any
illuminating statements from U, into an intellectual benefit for her! stunning, really.

if *patch cannot benefit from it, we are on a public forum --
there are vets + vet-techs, vet-behaviorists, highly-experienced trainers,
working-dog handlers, they are all represented -- surely they could get
some benefit from the answers U give?

i myself have 134 credits of a dual in Ag-Education + Animal-Science;
i can no longer recite the Krebs cycle (IMO that is why we have ref
texts), but i have, as a masseuse, a *DAM*ed* good understanding of
anatomy, and biology courses are an excellent foundation in physio.

i also have over 20-years handling + training, particularly since 1985
in B-Mod for serious problem-behaviors, including dog to dog aggro,
dog:human aggro, fears, phobias, OCDs and sep-anx.
i have, and will, work with dogs who have bite-histories.
i have worked with feral dogs and pups, and highly-anxious
dogs + pups who were neglected, profoundly undersocialized,
or physically / emotionally / mentally abused.

just what is it that none of us are capable of understanding?
really, try it! i bet at least a few folks might grasp
the concept or idea U are trying to convey - and if we do not,
i am equally sure that we can =say= we don;t get it.


none of us has claimed to be ALL-pos-R; i cannot speak for anyone
but myself - i am definitely strongly-BIASED toward pos-R, it is
impossible to be entirely, unequivocally positive-reinforcement.

when i work with a feral dog, i myself - my presence -
is an emotional punishment for that dog, at first.
but we have to start somewhere - i do not remain such
a terrible emotional shock for long, i become less-scary quickly.
that phase is as short as i can manage to make it - but it is
not a happy time, the dog is not thrilled by my arrival!



there were *Questions* in those 2 posts -
asking for info, not stating opposing opinion:
----------------------------------------------------------------
# which health-tests would U want for a dog whose owners
presenting complaint is aggression (unspecified type)?

# how is Ur collar different from the Illusion?

# why use a long-line on a neck-collar?



i feel that i am accountable, here and now -
how is an in-person verbal more accountable ?

i am very puzzled -
surely the written word is more accountable than mere talk,
thats why contracts are so important, why the Dr wants a
signature to agree to be treated, why we have legal
documents - not legal chats?

hoping for enlightenment,
--- terry

__________________
terry pride, APDT-Aus, apdt#1827, CVA, TDF
*wolves R wolves, dogs R dogs, + primates R us.*
tmp, sept-2007

Odd response from you I have to say John
When I am asked about the applications I use I am always happy to openly explain and discuss them, I asked you questions which were not confrontational, I asked them out of interest.

There may be differences in health considerations and treatments applied for behaviour issues between us in UK and yourselves over the pond, I thought comparing would be interesting.

In your rather defensive response and refusal to answer something so basic unfortunately I can only conclude at this time that you do not consider medical factors at all

Regarding your collar, I noticed what appears on the surface to be similarity to Millans Illusion collar, I asked how yours differs in order to better appreciate your explanation of the design theory.

Regarding long lines, having used and taught the use of them for a considerable number of years I feel absolutely justified in my comments in that regard as I have the experience to back it up.

As for your patronising assumption on my experience, just to enlighten you, I have specialised particularly in rehab for aggression issues including human and dog aggression, plus other behavioural issues, [ for nearly 30 years ], have much experience in the area of Working dogs [ including Protection ], just short of a decade teaching Agility and using it as a therapy for dogs with issues as and when beneficial to the dog, [ and being a long time qualified Judge ], and deaf dog handling, predominantly for deaf dogs with aggression and other issues.

But hey, what would I know about understanding dogs as far as you are concerned. And as for reading them, sorry John but as someone who owns four deaf dogs and worked through their previous abuse induced issues [ a couple of decades work altogether just of my own dogs ], and living every single day with dogs for whom reading and understanding their body language is more my first language than English is, well I think I can more than dispute your comments on that score.

What a shame that instead of an interesting discussion comparing notes your rather abrasive, dismissive, and I have to say arrogant response has said all I need to know to fill in the gaps which you have clearly left wide open for speculation.

However should the opportunity ever arise that we can `meet face to face for a more accountable dialog`, I would welcome it, I`m sure that would benefit you greatly [ that`s a right back atcha in case that sounds too subtle ] - but please do leave your ego behind as human ego is the single most preventative cause of getting in the way of what dogs try to communicate for us to learn from and to understand why they do the things that they do and how to guide them away from the things which would result in harm to themselves or others.

Until then, have a nice day now