Hello!

I've just joined the forum because i need a little bit of help!

I have got a 10 week old Patterdale x Border Terrier puppy called Mac, and i've not had a puppy before as i've always had older rescue dogs.
I have made the decision to crate train him, but we're having some problems. When we take him outside he is happy to go to the toilet, and he still has accidents in the house (which we totally expect as he is so little!!), but the thing i am not sure about is that he is still weeing in his crate. I have followed different advice and I have made sure his crate is small enough that he doesn't have a toilet area and a sleeping area, but the thing that is confusing me is that he always wee's in the middle of the crate and then sleeps in it!! Is this normal?? I had assumed that he would wee in the corner or something. He can happily go for up to 4 hours in the day and can go overnight without waking or weeing, but other times he will have had a few wee's by the time we let him out in the morning. He has never woken us up in the night to tell us he needs to go out either. I have also tried limiting the times he has access to water, but this doesn't seem to have any effect.

Any advice would be gratefully received!

Also, he is getting on really well with my other dog Maizie (5 year old whippety heinz 57 variety) but when we first got him she was obsessively licking his ears!! Any ideas why she would do this?? I had to separate them in the end as he had her slobber all over his ears and he wouldn't stop shaking his head!!!

Look forward to hearing from anyone!

hey, liz! :--)

the rule for pups is their Age in Mos + 1 = MAX number of hours
(without any added triggers) between potty-trips.

triggers include:
---------------------
active play
excitement (visitors, arrivals...)
meals / drinks
waking from sleep
startled/scared

so if the pup has Not had a meal, Not had a bout of play, and Not had a nap... etc,
he can at 10-WO go no longer than 2 + 1 = 3 hours max between potty-trips.

also, pups have no working sphincter-control before 12-WO/3-MO - they have no conscious control over Do i or Do i Not void, when they are full, they empty!
they can to some extent choose WHERE they go (Ex choose the carpet or the tile), but not WHEN they go - it is automatic.
so any potty-errors in the pup are the fault of the human - not the puppy, since they cannot read a clock, open the door, and take themselves out, LOL.

overnight, i always set an alarm for 3 AM and take the pup out - Carrying the pup in the house, so that a full bladder does not make them stop + wee - WALKING stimulates the bladder + bowel, being carried shuts off the elimination temporarily.
i set the leashed pup down in an area that has been used before, + wait -
Praise + TREAT on the spot for performance - and go back indoors.
pup goes in the crate, coat off, shoes off, back to sleep!

cheers,
--- terry

terry pride, APDT-Aus, apdt#1827, CVA, IPDTA, TDF

Thanks for the advice. We went to bed v late late last night and we were up very early so didn't need to get up and he's had a dry night, and no accidents yesterday at all! His training generally is coming on very well, I think i'm just worrying unnecessarily!

Any idea why my other dog was obsessivly licking him???

check in his ears for an sign of redness or infection, when ever pip had licked poppy's ear she usually needs drops for an infection, and it's always the same ear any photo's of the little pup

try covering it so its like a little cave, at this age you will either have to stay up late 1:30am ish to take him out to wee or get up really early 4:00am to wee. Simply the amount of fluids he drink can affect the lenght of time he can go without but 4 hours so young is a very long time! Are you sure hes not leaving you puddles somewhere your not noticing?
Pups usually dont like to wee so close to home so they will try to pee out of their crate - I think your just going to have to get up to take him out - youve already mention him being dry when you got up early etc. This will need to be constant till hes around 14-15 wks id say, and it just means verrry long days for you - but if you want it to stick youve got to put the effort in now

thank goodness my puppies have always managed all night fairly early on. Candy has had two accidents since I got her at 10 weeks old. Both times I had left her half an hour longer than normal. She has happily gone from 11pm to 7am the whole time though. I have never got up to a pup in the night and they have normally been totally clean by 12 weeks. I dont think you can put a formula on it.

re post#3

obsessive licking of the ears generally indicates an ear-infection with yeast -
sniff near both ears (individually, of course! LOL...) - if there is any whiff of old-sox or cheese, its a yeast critter.

IF and only if! there is no redness or any break whatever in the skin, acidfying her or his ears will knock-down the yeast-popn - but first U must keep the other dog from licking them after the process, the extra moisture + bacteria in the other dogs saliva only fuel the critters growth.
so have a plan to keep the 2nd dog from licking the pups ears -
baby-gates when U are at home, and a crate or an X-pen with a ROOF that the adult dog cannot jump into, or any such barriers or separation. letting them play together is fine, so long as U supervise and ** immediately ** interrupt any attempt to ear-wash.

if the visible ear-canal is ANY color but a light pink, it is Vet Time -
broken skin, redness, any swelling, etc. U do not want to risk any sort of serious infection inside the ear, so close to the brain + with the dogs hearing at possible risk.
** but if it is intact skin and only pink, U can safely try to home-treat. **
i am relying on Ur own good judgement to assess this! (grin)
= so proceed at Ur own risk - if in doubt, always go to the vet. =

the acidification of the ear is just adding 1 part Cider-vinegar to 1 part plain water, Distilled preferred or no-chlorine spring-water (the chlorine stings pores, and ears are more delicate than say, forelegs, etc).

before U begin, have the pup in the bathtub or outside or some area where shaking his head + throwing the wash out of his ear will not make a mess. i would leash the dog first, to make sure they do not take off after ear Number 1 - and U can stand on the leash, rather than trying to grow a 3rd arm to hold it while manipulating dog, eyedropper and vinegar-solution!

hold their head firmly (they will want to pull away + shake their heads INSTANTLY when the liquid goes in the ear, so be prepared - it is a very startling sensation!).
put a SMALL amount in one ear, perhaps a half-teaspoon, then smush the pinna (external ear flap) flat against the dogs skull, and rotate Ur thumb gently against the dogs head - the flap of the ear covers the entire opening, to keep the liquid inside, and U will hear the liquid moving - then let go and stand back!

U can then do the other ear, let them down to shake it out, and wipe inside each ear with a cotton-ball or gauze-pad or some such, One Per Each Ear -
no cross-contamination, just in case one ear has nasties and one does Not!!
do not stick anything into the ear-canal any further than U can SEE into it -
no Q-tips, etc. Dogs have L-shaped ear-canals, and U may push unseen goop INTO the ear against or closer-to the EAR-drum... a very bad thing, indeed.
so visible areas only, to be safe. :--)

doing this once per day or every-other day will knock the yeast down within 5 to 10 days time to a reasonable popn, at which time the funky-sox or old-cheese smell will no longer be detectable. (wait 12-hrs minimum after the vinegar-treatment to sniff the ear, or all U will smell is vinegar, LOL).
if it does NOT clear-up within 10-days, seek a vet!

Maintenance Ear-Solutions
---------------------------------
some folks who rear + show Labs, who of course here spend LOTS of time playing in the ocean, gave me their version of a preventive to keep ears free of critters.
they use it 2x per week, but their dogs are in the water daily - i would think once per week or every 10 - 14 days is plenty, for dogs who are mostly wet by rain, not jumping into surf!

they have TWO versions - one for treating a funky or irritated ear,
the second for normal maintenance. the *transition* one is for any swelling or pink color; if there is any visible irritation, that one is more-mild.


for mildly-irritated ears:
======================
1 part Cider-vinegar (not distilled-White vinegar),
1 part H2O2 / 1st-Aid Hydrogen Peroxide,
TWO Parts distilled-water or non-chlorine spring-water.
make only enuf to use immediately - it Does Not Keep.

to express it in another way,
1/4 Cider-vinegar
1/4 H2O2
1/2 Distilled water/spring-water



for ears that are *Not* irritated
========================
1 part Cider-vinegar
1 part H2O2

mix a tiny amount, to be used immediately, and discard all leftovers -
it cannot be kept, once mixed.

i have used this for many years, and it has proven very helpful.
if there is any part that is too difficult, if Ur dog or pup shows any PAIN or struggles violently during the process, either get an experienced dog-handler to help, or go directly to the vet. *** This Should NOT Hurt - ***
it feels very strange to the dog/pup, and the bubbling of the peroxide in their ears is downright bizarre, but it should be no more than mild upset over the restraint and not liking LIQUIDS in ones ear - which we do not enjoy, either!

i am a certified Veterinary Assistant, have had advanced First-Aid, and have many years as a practical-nurse to family members and as an aide, plus wildlife-rehab. assessing a wound, looking for infection, etc, is something i am familiar with, and i am comfortable doing that.
but if i see so much as a single CRACK however minute inside an ear, or ANY swelling and puffing at the opening to the Inner-Ear, i go immediately to my vet!
safe trumps sorry, every time. i never attempt to do home-care on something that is out of my depth;
risking my pets health is not worth it.

__________________
terry pride, APDT-Aus, apdt#1827, CVA, IPDTA, TDF
*wolves R wolves, dogs R dogs, + primates R us.*
tmp, sept-2007

Thanks for the comments and useful suggestions!! We've had a really good weekend, and no accidents in the crate and he is really getting the hang of toileting outsite (although he HATES the rain and refuses to sit down if its too cold!!).
We have his final jabs on Friday so I am really looking forward to being able to take him for a walk in a few weeks so he can get rid of the huge amounts of energy he has! There is only so much chase and play we can have in a small yard! The ear licking has completed stopped too (but thanks for the suggestions anyway, I have printed them off for future reference). It was mainly the first few days where my other dog was obsessive about it.

On another issue, both my dogs play a lot of the time and really enjoy tug games and chasing, but sometimes it all gets a bit mean (from my older dog). I don't get involved as i'm sure they will sort themselves out and I have never felt it was bad enough to intervene. I assume this is ok!

On another issue, both my dogs play a lot of the time and really enjoy tug games and chasing, but sometimes it all gets a bit mean (from my older dog). I don't get involved as i'm sure they will sort themselves out and I have never felt it was bad enough to intervene. I assume this is ok!



Just be careful that the older dog is playing and not getting to aggresive, pups can easily get hurt or worse. Do not ever leave them alone together if you go out or unsupervised when they are playing until the pup is much older and you know they get on ok. crate the pup if you have to go our for a while as it's safer in the crate, and it also give's the older dog a rest from an annoying pesting little pup for a while.

Yes, I always crate my puppy when I'm not there, and also when I am there for periods to give my other dog a break (and visa versa)! My older dog has always been very loud when playing with other dogs and therefore sounds much meaner than she is, and as other dogs don't seem to take much notice of her at all, I assume that she actually means little harm!
Thanks for your help!