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  #11 (permalink)  
Old 30-10-2009, 12:48 AM
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Re: Fear aggression

I think a fear of noise is a bit general really. Good reassurace and training will all help you control and gain her respect. Knowing you are the master will pay off when shes getting a bit twitchy.
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Old 30-10-2009, 08:50 AM
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Re: Fear aggression

Quote:
Originally Posted by james1 View Post
I think a fear of noise is a bit general really. Good reassurace and training will all help you control and gain her respect. Knowing you are the master will pay off when shes getting a bit twitchy.
I'm sorry but that's a load of bull. Have you actually ever dealt with a dog who is suffering from pure sheer fear? The OP has been advised to get a professional behaviourist to assess the dog which is the only advise they should listen to. THEN it can be assessed if the dog is taking the micky or terrified. 'Knowing you are the master' will do absolutely nothing for a dog that is terrified, my bitch is trained to an extreamly high level but when she hears a firework she knows NOTHING except the fear. She will burrow herself under the sofa, and for 25kg of dog that's quiet a task. Nothing and noone can reach her when her mind is shut down by fear. The dog needs quiet, time and certainly not some twit who thinks he's lord and master putting extra pressure on.
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Old 30-10-2009, 09:19 AM
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Re: Fear aggression

Everybody thanks for the advice. I'm pretty sure that she is just terrified and not 'trying it on' - when she was a pup noise didn't bother her but having lived through 3 years of Diwali fireworks I can't blame her - around us (in West London) they go on for about 2 weeks sometimes from as soon as it gets dark until 2 or 3 in the morning! Hopefully not too many this weekend for Guy Fawkes though!

Her fear of noise has escalated over the last 3 years until now any loud noise seems to scare her stiff! Even to the extent that she now won't poo in the garden because something has frightened her - thus not going for a walk is not an option! Have managed to walk her morning and night this week - she is quite happy if I take her somewhere in the car and then put the lead on - but in the house she's not even keen on the lead - runs and hides when I get it out.

As long as she has a ball to chase when she is out she doesn't seem too worried.

Have tried a DAP diffuser which I got from the vet but that didn't seem to have any effect - so I think a behaviourist is my next step. Just not sure if a noise CD will work - she seems to know whether the noise is 'real' or not as she quite happily ignores foreworks/thunder etc. if they are on the TV.

Anyway it was fantastic to have so many replies and suggestions
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Old 30-10-2009, 09:28 AM
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Re: Fear aggression

Quote:
Originally Posted by JSR View Post
I'm sorry but that's a load of bull. Have you actually ever dealt with a dog who is suffering from pure sheer fear? The OP has been advised to get a professional behaviourist to assess the dog which is the only advise they should listen to. THEN it can be assessed if the dog is taking the micky or terrified. 'Knowing you are the master' will do absolutely nothing for a dog that is terrified, my bitch is trained to an extreamly high level but when she hears a firework she knows NOTHING except the fear. She will burrow herself under the sofa, and for 25kg of dog that's quiet a task. Nothing and noone can reach her when her mind is shut down by fear. The dog needs quiet, time and certainly not some twit who thinks he's lord and master putting extra pressure on.
Fantastic post. Blobs on their way.

Why is it that whenever a dog has a problem, dominance/being the "pack" leader always comes up? Dominance is a term that is SO overused and leads to misdiagnosis (and dangerous misdiagnosis at that!) of a problem.

To the OP -I would urge you not to worry about "dominance" or dominance related issues. This is not what is at play here. The reason a fear aggressive dog displays aggressive behaviour is because they learn that it is the only way to get the thing that scares them to go away. Hence the name, FEAR AGGRESSION. Aggression caused by fear.

In the OPs case the dog has learnt that the only way to stop their owner from taking them outside (very scary experience to a dog who is scared of fireworks) is by using aggression.

I think the OPs best bet would be to contact a decent positive reinforcement behaviourist who can assess the severity of the FA and help you to establish a behaviour modification programme (normally consisting of systematic desensitization to the feared stimulus and counter- conditioning the dogs emotional response to it) that will help the dog overcome it's fear.
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Old 30-10-2009, 07:49 PM
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Re: Fear aggression

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Originally Posted by London Dogwalker View Post

Also the bit about the harness, I wouldn't push it til she bites you obviously, but don't let her keep getting her own way. Either she has a harness on and you go for a walk, or no walk.

Lots of treats and praise when you're putting the harness on, if it's got to the stage where she won't let you near her with the harness because she's associated it with the fireworks then you'll have to desensitise her to the harness. Leave it on the floor and when she goes near it praise and treat so she thinks 'oooh the harness, this means good stuff'.

I agree.

Bella used to be the same as she associated her harness with walking and she is petrified of traffic.

I used to put her harness on for short periods during the day just for the sake of it. She soon realised that the harness doesn't always mean a scary walk with scary traffic.

Good luck, it can be very hard work and distressing when a dog is that nervous...
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Old 30-10-2009, 08:05 PM
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Re: Fear aggression

With regards to the harness and managing to get it on.
I would play a sort of desensitization "game" with her. If you clicker train I would do it as follows:

Sit down next to the dog with the harness in your hand, a pot of really high value treats and your clicker. Push the harness out across the floor, click, treat, big praise, push it a little closer to her, click, reward, push it closer to her, click, reward, ask her to do a hand touch (touching your palm with her nose), click, reward, ask her to target the harness, click, reward, move it closer to her, click, reward etc...

You don't even need to put it on her. But you want her to be doing little tasks involving the harness (targeting etc), so that she has to work for the click and reward. The idea is that once she starts focussing on working for the click, the fear of the harness (because she associates it with going out and fireworks etc...) shouldn't be so prominant. Hopefully she should make more positive associations with it too.
Obviously though she'd need to know how to hand touch and target objects on command, so if she doesn't know them yet you'd have to train those behaviours.

Hope that helps
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Old 30-10-2009, 08:20 PM
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Re: Fear aggression

If you clicker train this might be a good thing to teach and eventually apply to the harness.

You'd need to start with non scary objects first though and work gradually
YouTube - How to train your dog not to bark- episode 2- scary objects

This video underlines desensitization to noises- you could apply this to fireworks and by using a Sounds Scary CD for fireworks so that you have control of the stimulus
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jp_l9...video_response
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Last edited by lemmsy; 30-10-2009 at 08:26 PM..
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Old 30-10-2009, 11:53 PM
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Re: Fear aggression

Quote:
Originally Posted by JSR View Post
I'm sorry but that's a load of bull.

The dog needs quiet, time and certainly not some twit who thinks he's lord and master putting extra pressure on.
If your read below

Quote:
Originally Posted by FrankoPhile View Post
Everybody thanks for the advice. I'm pretty sure that she is just terrified and not 'trying it on' - when she was a pup noise didn't bother her but having lived through 3 years of Diwali fireworks I can't blame her
With some dogs breeding causes skitishness or fear of the unknown; an inate genetic trait. For the most however (and in this case) fear is learned, if you dont tell them what is right in reassuring them away from it, behaviour will be reinforced by you not taking action. The only way to solve this is to challenge what she thinks not challenge her but challenge what she thinks is right. I have never said that she was 'trying it on' as this is what your suggesting JSR and highlighted by thr OP, I am suggesting that she is making the decisions as to what is right and wrong. The owner taking control of situations having her know commands will give them the ability to settle her in any given situation. Its like all training - it doesnt come overnight but is a gradual thing that makes you more in control and them the better for it.

As I have said behaviour is learned, as she wasnt like this when young - which means she will be able to 'unlearn' it by the owner addressing the issues.

Edit: I have also said - there is no need to be puting stress on them unduely.

Last edited by james1; 30-10-2009 at 11:56 PM..
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Old 30-10-2009, 11:59 PM
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Re: Fear aggression

Quote:
Originally Posted by lemmsy View Post
Fantastic post. Blobs on their way.

Why is it that whenever a dog has a problem, dominance/being the "pack" leader always comes up? Dominance is a term that is SO overused and leads to misdiagnosis (and dangerous misdiagnosis at that!) of a problem.
Whos talking about dominance? Im talking about simple owner control and resonsibility to the health of an animal?
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Old 31-10-2009, 12:15 AM
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Re: Fear aggression

Quote:
Originally Posted by lemmsy View Post
With regards to the harness and managing to get it on.
I would play a sort of desensitization "game" with her. If you clicker train I would do it as follows:

Sit down next to the dog with the harness in your hand, a pot of really high value treats and your clicker. Push the harness out across the floor, click, treat, big praise, push it a little closer to her, click, reward, push it closer to her, click, reward, ask her to do a hand touch (touching your palm with her nose), click, reward, ask her to target the harness, click, reward, move it closer to her, click, reward etc...

You don't even need to put it on her. But you want her to be doing little tasks involving the harness (targeting etc), so that she has to work for the click and reward. The idea is that once she starts focussing on working for the click, the fear of the harness (because she associates it with going out and fireworks etc...) shouldn't be so prominant. Hopefully she should make more positive associations with it too.
Obviously though she'd need to know how to hand touch and target objects on command, so if she doesn't know them yet you'd have to train those behaviours.

Hope that helps
Dogs dont need to be desensitised to simple things like this - I think your taking a method of training as a cannon to the application of desensitiation whan it is simply not necessary. Most dogs will react in some way to new things - its how you hanlde the situation when your introducing the new idea that is the key factor. You certainly dont need to be going through a whole training process to simply put a lead, collar or harness on them.
I think some people can really over-engineer situations when there is very little need. I also think some people seem to treat dogs as some kind of porcelain figure that is so easliy damaged. Its good that people think about their dogs - but you dont need to over think as you will be the one having to wonder 10 times about how to handle any given situation best which isnt productive. A simple cue should work 9 times out of 10 and this all comes from training and knowing your dogs signals - acting before anything gets out of hand.
If you have ever seen the aftermath of a dog fight/scap the "victim" dog 9 times out of 10 will not be the slightest bit bothered - but it is the owner that is more shaken up, annoyed or worried. There are exceptions but after something so dramatic - desensitisation isnt even needed then!
Things can be very easily over complicated - its the owners approach that is the key influence on how your dog behaves

Last edited by james1; 31-10-2009 at 12:20 AM..
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