tiddlypup, so happy to see you have decided against taking the shock collar route, and don`t you worry, you will keep your hair because knowing you are not harming your babe will take the edge off the stress while you continue to work on proper training, and once you have cracked whatever you are working on the training results will be there for life, so you can look forward to the enhanced bonding you will create between you by working with patience and a gentle hand


twiglet, high five right back atcha I hope you had a glass for me as I`m allergic to alcohol so I have to drink by proxy

Yes Mods - Please intervene - See the thing is, I guess 'some' are a little put out that their argument is severely flawed. They cant win so expect the 'Mods' to step in and ban the people they dont agree with. By all means, ban me - not a problem at all - My message has gone out loud and clear and funnily enough, since posting, I have been overwhelmed with emails of support . FYI - I will sleep soundly at night knowing I would NEVER EVER hurt any animal OR respect anyone that condones the same - my conscience is TOTALLY and UTTERLY clear - I speak for those who cannot speak themselves - Banning me will not change my views whatsoever OR erase your sad tolerance of using/supporting those who use these collars. At some point they will be banned on a wider scale and I hope you will remember me as part of that. My previous 'recent' educational thread - welsh gov law/KC/RSPCA laughes in the face of 'abusers' and guess what - so do I

Just a little sherry for us pals on here (although after watching Whitters on x factor - Put me right off love! ) Currently have 3 hedgehogs in my front room (legs akimbo in front of my fire!) All good here XX

The thing is, shocking a dog with a chase problem could well make a chase problem worse.

(Without waffling ) In essense, when dogs chase they get a massive dopamine (feel goooooood boost) which is why they will seek out opportunities to chase- they enjoy it that much. You will find that with dogs that are nervous or have negative experiences/issues in their lives/ are particually stressed out, they will actively look for opportunities to chase more, as a way of making up for these things. By shocking a dog for chasing say a rabbit, you have created a avoidance behaviour through punishment.
The dog learns through classical conditioning to associate the rabbit with the nasty electric shock.
So now, when the dog sees or is presented with the opportunity to chase a rabbit, they face conflict and stress, they know that they want to chase a rabbit and yet are fearful of the shock. It is for this reason that you may well find that the chase "object" originally the rabbit, will change and the dog could well begin to chase something else, deer, bikes, squirrels, livestock etc... things it previously didn't bother with.
I believe that with a chase problem the best way to solve it is by teaching a chase recall. Sometimes quite a lengthy proccess, up to a year or more sometimes but it really depends on the dog, owner and how much time you put in. Obviously this chase recall involves focusing said dog on an object that you want them to chase and getting to the point where you can call "toy" in the prescense of the previous chase objects (i.e. rabbits) and the dog will either immediately spin around to you and wait for his toy or drop into a down and wait for you to release him to get his toy. Totally goes on personally preference really, and what you think best suits the dog. Collies for instance, especially the worky types actively offer you "down" behaviours so it's really easy to encorporate into chase recall training.
At the end of the proccess though, you'll have a dog that actively chooses to stay with their person and their toy rather than chase other object and many will get to the point where they completely ignore the previous chase object. You will have a dog that is happy rather than conflicted, confused and nervous.
More info here:
How do I stop my dog chasing? – David Ryan CCAB


Anyway I've gone off topic but what I really feel is that shock collars are really not a suitable or kind way of training dogs. They may appear to work but IMO as with all "train with pain" type methods they really can make a problem a lot worse or just create a new one. You want your dog to trust you, why would you use a shock collar and hurt him/her when you can easily train them using positive, kind, effective methods and have a happy, healthy dog? All things take time, IMO training really is not as simple as just putting a collar on a dog and pressing a button. You have to work with the dog and strengthen your relationship.

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And I appreciate it


I will be the first to admit that while the original e-collars did their job they, involved much more pain than I would ever be willing to inflict on a dog unless it was a life and death situation and even then I would employ all other tactics I could because I do believe those bordered on the line of brutality. But as any useful tool I believe they have evolved and changed to become a tool that is amazing in it's diversity and usefulness.

Yes, an e-collar can be abused, as can any tool. A crate, a knife, a car, a gun, rope etc are all tools that can be misused . A flat buckle collar can be abused and in my opinion is abused more often than a shock collar. But while they have the potential to be abused they also have the potential to be useful and effective.

You still did not say that you have ever seen, felt or used one properly and because of that I still do not believe you are in the position to declare them useless and always abusive, cruel and ineffective. While I respect and applaud your work with dogs I still do not believe that means you understand an e-collar without hands on experience with one, and again I mean a new high quality ones in the hands of an experienced handler using it correctly. I have seen the aftermath of a horrible car accident. Does not mean that I believe cars should be banned

The word "shock", while accurate, is misleading. The amount of shock that the dog feels is the equivalent to a itch, bug bite, tickle. Enough to make it slightly unpleasant or bothersome and have a noticeable change when turned off.

I would really like to dispel the myth that training with an e-collar is "easy" or "lazy" . If you do it right it requires A LOT of time, energy and dedication to do it well. You need as good if not better reflexes than with a marker and you need to know your dog and be willing to put in many hours to get your dog completely reliable and proficient without the e-collar just as with any form of training.. Training a dog is not easy no matter what technique you use. The only easy way to train is to not.

Since you say you've been following them since the beginning you probably already know how a good e-collar trainer (at least to my expectations) starts a dog off on one. But I believe many on this thread are ignorant of it and I feel the need to share.

First you take the dog to a low/no distraction location and allow him to relax. Once completely relaxed you turn the device to the lowest setting possible and "shock" them. Typically on the lowest setting they can't even feel it. Then you turn it up to the next setting. You continue doing that until you get a reaction. You are looking for an ear twitch, blink, skin jump, slight movement to the side, looking at the spot where they felt the sensation. You want the lowest setting possible with the least amount of reaction. Training a dog using straight out pain is counter productive. The dog can't focus on the task.

To assume that the basis behind the e-collar is simply to compel the dog into behaving instantly is to do our dogs a serious discredit. They are not machines, and they are not run simply reinforcement and punishment. Yes, that is a major part of their world, but as Roger Hild (http://www3.sympatico.ca/tsuro/_arti...te_collar.html) observed in one of his articles, they are perfectly capable of learning the language of the collar and "getting the game."

Is a training session stressful? Yes, probably. But the same way a good session with a marker and treats is stressful. Stress is not a bad thing, it just is.

I don't have a problem with trainers that don't use an e-collar, I have a problem with those who condemn them and the people who use them. Just because you have decided "there is a need nor a place in the world of training for shock collars to be used on any dog in any situation" doesn't mean others haven't decided the exact opposite thing and I believe it does a great disservice to them and their dogs to take that choice away from them.

I dislike haltis. I find the majority of people abuse them, use them wrong and do not understand them. I think the majority of dogs would be much better off without them. BUT I have seem them used well and used one myself. I have seen situations where one would be a good tool to employ; even if they are rare and far in between. But I do not presume I have the right to tell others that they are not allowed to use one.

There is no always in training, there is no never in training, there are no absolutes in training. I have never thought that every single "problem" dog needs a shock collar to be helped, it depends on the dog and the trainer. Some dogs it is one of the only tools that will work to the correct effectiveness and reliability. Others is a great tool that isn't needed but works wonders.

Whatever the use, I want to be free to use the collar should I choose. I don't want anybody telling me what training aids I can and can't use on my dog. Ultimately, that's what's important here.

On another note, my plan is to one day adopt a deaf dog and work with it. I think it would be a very fun, challenging and rewarding experience. Do you use a vibrating collar? Lights? Or primarily hand signals?

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I actually did train a client with a deaf dalmatian many years ago (or so it seems!). We taught the dog that his owner was a tad unpredictable, that she would suddenly stop or walk the other way or even hide! (We used a long line for the initial training) Everytime the dog came bounding over to find her, he got loads of praise and happy face and hand signals. He also sometimes got a treat and sometimes got a toy. He never knew which. He learned to keep an eye on his owner and frequently look back at her by using this mehod and his owner could call him back when he did so. She never expected the impossible though and only walked him where it was safe for him to run free. He also learned to sit, down, stay and walk nicely usinf praice via facial expressions and of course, a surprise reward of either play, treat or toy. It was indeed rewarding to help with this dog and his owner, especially as she was literally tearing her hair out when I first met her. She had already tried a local 'old school' trainer who was very dominance orientated and had a bad experience.

Help with training your deaf dog from Barry Eaton can help you more with ideas. Barry is an expert where deaf dog training is concerned.

Apologies for being in a rush so will respond to this in particular for now and the rest of your post later on

With my own deaf dogs [ four currently, more before them ], I use visual cues, not just hand signals though as every movement from head to toe and all manner of facial expressions can be utilised for a deaf dog to `read`. Though vibration collars are not something my own crew have ever particularly benefited from compared to visual methods, [ the most recent vibrating collar I tried out was for my youngest deaf girl, that collar is now being tried by a friend for her deaf dog as of a couple of days ago, it terrified my little girl whom I was trying it for, the slightest vibration put her in a blind panic ], it does`nt mean it would`nt work well for other deaf dogs, it`s one of those things which either works well or not at all from dog to dog.
For me, body language for deaf dogs is basically my `second language` because of having deaf dogs for so long - to the point of my hearing Lurcher`s training being done silent as I kept forgetting to speak cues to him
I don`t personally advocate vibrating collar use on deaf dogs for out door recall as there is too much risk of it failing, if the remote failed or the batteries went then recall relying on it would be lost altogether, [ subtle hint of the same being applicable to shock users....], deaf dog recall should in my experience, [ and yep, decades of it, day in, day out, because I keep adopting deaf dogs as well as working with other owners of them ], be through visuals training for the dogs to learn `checking back`.

It would perhaps be better to start a separate thread on deaf dog training though so as not to be lost or too off topic for this thread, [ don`t take that the wrong way, it`s not meant as a negative comment in any way ].

What I will say on this thread which is something for shock collar users to consider is that shocking a deaf dog is horrendously traumatic, therefore alternatives are absolutely necessary, and as deaf dog training needs to be hands off [ ie not pushing the rump down for a Sit ], and voice obviously does`nt work, it shows how much can be achieved with visuals only, so if deaf dog handlers can get there without causing pain nor using shock collars and not using voice of any tome then they are not needed for hearing dogs either, at least 80% of a hearing dogs communication availability is visual but most [ not all ] owners of hearing dogs use voice and many use physical touch, including in all too many cases, pain either directly or remotely.
If more owners of hearing dogs trained without sound or touch they would be amazed at how much easier their dogs can learn as visual is the primary mode, and especially something as basic as : instead of shouting or otherwise loud voice try a whisper instead - it`s far more effective for teaching general training, agility, tricks, HTM etc etc etc.

One friend with a deaf dog who was referred to me for help does use a blue light torch to train her lad, she uses it as a replacement for an audible clicker, and has done far more with him that way than most people can do with their hearing dogs, mainly because without him being able to hear sound there is less distraction, [ as is the case for all deaf dogs ], he now competes in Agility, recently took First place his first time out at a HTM competition, and came second in the Obedience comp at the same show - he was a severe abuse case, she adopted him from the rescue where he had been kennelled for most of his life, [ he was over 2 years old when she adopted him ], he had severe human and dog aggression issues due to abuse and no canine socialisation, and was muzzled the whole time he was in rescue due to the severity of his aggression.
He is a Staffy x
He is her first ever dog.
No pain or punitive methods have been used on him since she adopted him, to have done so would have escalated his issues and he would probably have been destroyed as a result.
If a dog like him can come so far without being shocked, because of gentle patient training getting the job done, well, `nuff said

He is a lovely bloke, though he get`s highly embarrassed when told so
He has photo`s of my oldest lad doing Agility which he asked me for, to use whenever he does seminars, at the time he asked for them, my lad, [ now aged 15 ], and one other deaf dog were the only ones in the South on the Agility competition circuit, but thanks to people like Barry a lot more people in competitive hobbies give deaf dogs a chance where before they were ignored through assumptions that they would be too difficult to train and live with, I have a lot of respect for Barry and a lot of deaf dogs have him to thank for him leading the way in dispelling so many myths about canine deafness

Closed For Moderating.. If i decide its worth it

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