I read through a lot of the threads on here, some I comment on, others I don't. I'm not a dog trainer, I wouldn't even class myself as what I would call a competent handler, but I can see a lot of basic errors, because I've either made them myself, or have watched others fall into the trap.

The best way, as I'm sure the majority of people on this forum will agree, to train a dog, is setting things up so that they can get it right, praise and reward. Dogs love getting things right, and they love the attention for doing so - one of the basic errors in fact is to give attention when they do something either wrong, or that encourages unwanted behaviour.

But, when do you draw the line; each situation is different to the dog and individual person, possibly some dogs never try and cross the line, mine rarely do, but when they do know something, and stick the proverbial twos up, then they are told off. Nothing nasty, all mannerisms and growly voice which usually serves to jog their memory and rid them of sudden selective deafness in the appropriate situation.

In some situations even, where a dog has learnt to do something wrong, a good way to stop the dog from repeating the mistake is to set it up to do exactly what you don't want it to, and anticipate the exact moment to jump on it, metaphorically speaking. It's important then to offer the dog a way out to correct whatever training you were doing to get it done the right way.

I get completely fed up of people saying you should never tell your dog off, you should only use praise and reward; in an ideal world that would be fabulous, however, dogs aren't robots, humans are certainly not the best of handlers in the majority of cases, and used in the correct place a short reprimand (usually an 'oi you bl$$dy thing' in as growly a voice as possible) is a handy tool to have. But, and this is the other side of the coin, it should ONLY be used on the rare occasions you need to, the more you reprimand a dog, the more it's water off a ducks back, so the very time you need it to respond to the growly voice and steely glare, it will. And a dog that is used to being praised for getting things right, is more likely to recognise the difference.

Thoughts anyone? Agree or disagree?? Other views about it?

__________________
The British Association for Shooting & Conservation
Countryside Alliance



Follow my art here http://tarimoorart.blogspot.com/

I think positive reinforcement is great for the majority of the time but there are times when I let my dog know I don't like what it's doing. Then, as soon as she's presenting good behaviour again, I praise her! I did this with Roxy when she was yelping in her crate when I put her there for half an hour so I can deal with the kids. I waited till she was mid- yelp and then opened the door to the room suddenly and said 'Quiet!' in a stern voice. I did this twice and she hasn't yelped in her crate since. Then, when she's quiet in her crate, I praise her and give her treats!

A x

__________________
Amanda x

Mummy of Kira, Alexi, Snookle, Tabs, Tiggles, Jerry and Roxy! RIP little Tom, Dick and Harry the Degus- we miss you...

Agree with all you've said, dogs do know the difference fron right and wrong once trained and definetly "try it on" from time to time, or simply forget from time to time a little reminder, not agressive but firm does no harm at all.

Dogs are like children.
Violence and constant fear are counter productive but they do need to know where the boundaries are and who is the leader.
They are happier and healthier for it in my opinion.

Good post and quite interesting......

I think you have two different types of dogs:

A dog you have had since a pup, who I believe you should have very few problems with. If you take over from it's mother, then you automatically take the role of "leader". A puppy is like a blank canvas, you can create what you like. There are a few exceptions, I hear of dogs who have been attacked that end up with fear aggression. Of course this sort of thing can happen to any dog. However, I do believe that if you deal with it right when it happens, then you should be able to sort it out.

Then you have rescue dogs...... You have some who have been mistreated to varying degrees, some who have been caged most of their life, dogs who were strays/street dogs. When you take on this sort of dog, you need to treat it differently to the above example. This dog will not know you are it's leader, you have just appeared. And a lot of owners go overboard on the fuss and almost try to make up for the terrible life it has had. Straight away, this dog will not see you as the leader, because you are in a weak state of mind. This is where the mis-communication starts......

A dog who has no issues, can be dealt with by way of training and basic obedience and a bit of common sense and basic leadership.

A dog with issues needs to know you are the boss, otherwise how can you help the dog overcome it's problem if it doesn;t see you as the leader? Fundamentially, I believe this is the biggest mistake owners make.

I believe in positive reinforcement, but I also believe that sometimes you have to "tell" a dog off, or in some cases even lay hands on that dog. I am not talking physical punishment as such, but a touch action to "snap" them out of their train of thought. If you can "snap" a dog out of it at level 1, then it will not escelate.

Not sure whether that has answered your question or not .........


x

__________________


Lilly, Max, Henry and Sammy. The joys of my life!

www.rescueremedies.co.uk
www.staffierescue.co.uk

It wasn't a question as such, more of a viewpoint for debate

Funnily enough, I've had both dogs you describe. In the experience I have had with mine, although pups are a blank canvas, it is very easy to muck them up completely, to be inconsistent, to give the wrong signals and end up with a dog that is unfortunately unpredictable. In fact that is very likely how a lot end up in rescue, because people expect if they get a pup that it will grow up to *understand* what is required of it. You hear of so many times where people have got a pup and its playful and runs around and isn't it fun, but then it gets bitey and then its not so much fun with pups being described as dominant or aggressive, particularly where children are concerned.

I think it was Dundee who posted recently about puppy classes, why don't people who haven't got the knowledge to bring up a pup take them to a class so that they can learn something about their dogs? Even if you have got the knowledge, a puppy class is often a good place to socialise pups, and further your knowledge as a handler.

I've heard of people not being able to afford classes, one particular lady used to make me see red, she bought a Lab pup from a farm, no health tests, walked it from day one for three hours every day and never trained it, it was a nightmare and unfortunately by one year old you could see the effect overexercise had had on it's back end; she couldn't afford classes, but could afford to eat takeaways most nights.

Knowledge about how to cope with your pup/dog is part of its welfare to me, and you can't afford to cut corners. That's not meant to be judgemental, but perhaps a lot of people aren't aware of this when they take a pup/dog on?

__________________
The British Association for Shooting & Conservation
Countryside Alliance



Follow my art here http://tarimoorart.blogspot.com/

I agree with you that you need to have an understanding of how to communicate with a dog and what your actions ACTUALLY mean to the dog.

I have to say, when I got my first 2 rescue's, I knew nothing and because of that I made loads of mistakes. Now I have read lots of books, I watch TV shows and I am doing a home study course on canine psychology, so it all makes sense to me. But I should have done more research on it first. Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

I did not have the option of going to training classes, my dogs had too many issues, so I have had to teach myself.

I know you can still make mistakes with pup's, but I do find it ever so annoying when big problems arise in these situations. As you say, if people were to go to puppy training classes, then they would be able to deal witha lot of the problems.

A dog is not born with issues, it is humans that create them. Which is why when you have a pup you get a chance to do it all right. With rescue's alot of them already have problems..........

__________________


Lilly, Max, Henry and Sammy. The joys of my life!

www.rescueremedies.co.uk
www.staffierescue.co.uk

I agree whole-heartedly with both of you,
unfortunately some ppl don't see having a puppy as the big commitment it is, they are happy with "puppy" behaviour but not happy with the same behaviour when it's older, you hear ppl say "they used to be so cute why are they like this?" unfortunatly this irrisponsibility is why most dogs end up in rescue centers with "big" problems.

I know of a couple of people who have recently taken puppies on and given them back because they couldn't cope.
It is a shock how demanding they can be, they should come with more information, that said i'm not sure what people expect.

Absolutely spot on haeveymolly - also sound original post (Sleeping Lion). Finally some real sense (and knowledge) being shared - more often than not the "my dog is my child - i treat it as such" owners, out-shout the competent handlers on this forum.

A dog is only like a child, in that it is a sponge willing to learn, (ok and it needs food and shelter and care etc) but at the end of the day it's still a dog, not a child. Treat it with love and respect, and train it well, and you will be rewarded, but don't treat it as a child please!

BTW a reprimand is not violance or creating a atmosphere of fear, it is a reprimand. As it is when my office manger reprimands me for leaving a teaspoon in the office canteen sink - I move on (and hopefully don't do it again) , I don't live in a world of fear!

__________________
Ian

Sylvestris Kennels - Pedigree Labrador Breeders
Inverurie, Aberdeenshire
www.sylvestriskennels.co.uk