Hi all,

Before you read this very informative article, please be aware that my reason for posting it is purely to share interesting information with those who are keen to know more, and learn about dogs.

I am not posting it to begin a debate. My intention is to share information.

Take the time to read through and view the ALL the videos, some great stuff here, and lots of other links for those who want to dig deeper.

Sophia Yin on the Dominance Controversy

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"Properly trained, a man can be a dog's best friend."
Corey Ford

Brilliant.

Read it all, watched the clips and am now even more convinced that Cesar Millan shouldn't be allowed near averagely-disobedient pet dogs, let alone on TV. To be honest, watching the way he treats some of his "cases" makes me uncomfortable enough to actually get upset.

I have no doubt that he has some success with last chance, red-zone dogs (although even that, to me, doesn't entirely excuse his methods) but I wouldn't let him near an animal of mine with a barge pole.

Loved the clip with the JRT having his face blown in! Now THAT'S the way to do it - doubtless CM would have had the poor little dog pinned down within seconds

I've heard him described as setting dog training back twenty years and I don't think that's an exaggeration. If only people wouldn't fall for his teeth and smile and charisma and actually WATCHED what he is doing to these poor dogs, he might not have so many wannabe's hanging onto (and quoting) his every word.

excellant read. I have a one of sophia yin books, a very well written, balanced book. This post is no exception, good well balanced arguments without being too judgemental on CM and his methods; or disregarding absolutley everything he says.

I also loved the JRT with counterconditioning - this is how i got buster away from being possessive of bones and toys.

An interesting thread! Unfortunatley I cannot hear the videos as the sound on my PC does not work. I have however, seen all the episodes, so am familar with his methods.

I have deliberately waited a few hours before I have replied, as quite honestly I am sick to death of the constant slurs on CM. However, seeing as the OP has gone to the trouble, I thought I should reply.

As far as most anti cesar people go, she is far more balanced. She makes some good points.

The point about some of his techniques not being safe for families to use is correct. Hence, it says "don't try this at home".

I agree that sometimes he does not do enough rewarding.

I also agree that sometimes he can be a bit heavy handed with dogs, and maybe they are scared, for a short time. But I also disagree that it is doing them any lasting psychological damage.

I also agree that "alpha rolls" are not suitable for everybody. I myself have used them and I did not see any benefit. However, I would not critize him for it, because he gets results.

What some people see as fear, some see as the dog submitting. What some see as excitement, some see as dominance. Everybody has their own perspective on it.

As you know I agree with his methods, I only wish I had known about them from day 1.

The way I see it is this:

1) He successfully manages a pack of 30-40 dogs, of different breeds and nearly all of them rescue dogs. You may argue that the pack manages itself now, and to a degree it does. But he had to start it off at some point.
2) I use his methods and I am achieving some great results. For the past 2 weeks I have had 5 dogs, my 3, my sisters male bulldog and a male rottweiler. All dogs quite clearly see me as the dominant one/pack leader and it is why I am able to manage a pack like this. Also bare in mind that I have 2 troubled dogs, who have had dog aggression issues.

All the time I am seeing results, why change it?

In actual fact I hope to start Max off at agility later in the year. This is a dog who has had so many problems adjusting to normal life and has had serious dog aggression issues. I firmly believe I have made this possible by using the dominance theory and being able to impact his behaviour.

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Lilly, Max, Henry and Sammy. The joys of my life!

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www.staffierescue.co.uk

It isn't as simple as everyone having their own perspective though, is it?

Basically from what I can make out, EVERYONE who has studied dog behaviour properly agrees that the "dominance theory" is flawed.

Saying that everyone has their own take on it is a bit like saying "Well, all qualified brain surgeons do things one way but some people who aren't qualified but have studied the brain in a medical book do it another".

I've not read ANY articles written by experienced behaviourists, who have studied dog behaviour properly, that agree with CM's methods.

To be honest, I only replied because I thought it was disrespectful to the OP, seeing that I have quite strong views on it.

I am getting sick to death of trying to justify my belief's and the constant harping on about CM. Not everything he does is right, but then again, not everything he does is wrong. People are obsessed about it.

I have heard people on the forum complaining about being bullied and I have to say that at times, if I was a weaker person, I may feel like this (not refereing to your post, but other posts that are running). We each have a different opinion and what works for one person does not another.

In actual fact, this is the last comment I am going to make on this theory. Because we all just go round in circles and end up detracting from what the OP is asking.

In answer to your question about this theory, I have read books by Cesar Milan, Jan Fennell, Barbara Sykes, Bruce Foggle and Bonnie V Beaver. Although most do not advocate the "alpha rolls" which everyone is obsessed with, they do talk about the pack heirachy and leadership.

Now that is me over and out x

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Lilly, Max, Henry and Sammy. The joys of my life!

www.rescueremedies.co.uk
www.staffierescue.co.uk

Pack hierarchy - yes. Among dogs. Dogs do not think people are other dogs though.

Leadership - yes again. It does no harm for a dog to realise that you, the human, control resources and that tuning in to the human and responding to cues will lead to Good Things.

However, there is a lot of confusion over the line between leadership and dominance.

Hooray common sense at last!!! I have read Sophia Yin's work before, and as a result i've always thought Ceaser Millan's methods to be far to wide of the mark, "Dog Whisperer" my left pad, more like dog shouter!

I am so sick and tired of having people, say to me "ooh you should watch that Ceaser Millan, he knows everything about dogs" it was inexperianced hands using Cms Bullying Methods that caused some my Ollies problems in the first place, who was it that said "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing"

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Thanks for the thoughtful comments guys.

goodvic2 I'm not in to bashing CM, as I hope you realise. My passion is teaching humans how to have better relationships with their canine companions, and therefore improving the quality of life for canines as well.

I appreciate that you may sometimes feel that everyone has it in for CM, but this is not really the reality. Many behaviourists myself included have a problem with his methods, however I know very well that CM is not the only dog professional out there using dominance based training methods, he is however the only one who has such a wide audience. So this is the reality of why he gets so much attention.

I recently commented on a blog post which relates to this thread, and also to the Sophia Yin article. I have also posted and article on my own blog which raises questions on what determines social canine behaviour.

I'll link to them here as a copy and paste would make this reply too long.

Post: Dismantling Cesar’s House of Dominance (My comment)

My blog post: What Shapes Canine Social Behaviour?

My view (as well as many other behaviourists), is that the behaviour of domestic dog is very much shaped by their environment and experiences within that environment.

So if a dog owners decides to use dominance based training methods, by default the owners is setting up a dominance based environment, and this will result in a dog that is either a) fearful, timid, subdued, shut-down, or b) reactive and aggressive.

The majority of my work is re-training humans to be benevolent leaders, and NOT pack leaders. This is not easy when some clients view CM the same way they view religion However, people counselling is very much part of what I do, and I enjoy it, and find it very rewarding when suddenly the light goes on, and clients realise that their behaviour and training methods have lead to the very problems they were looking to prevent/avoid.

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"Properly trained, a man can be a dog's best friend."
Corey Ford

I often wonder if Cesar would have quite so many followers - or at least would they be quite so rabid and unwilling to consider even the remotest possibility that Cesar's advice is based on flawed research - if he wasn't quite so photogenic and charismatic.

I am convinced that if he were female and looked like Mo Mowlam, at least half of the females who quote him so adoringly wouldn't be quite so vociferous in their defence of their hero...