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Dog Training and Behaviour Discuss dog training and behaviour problems in this section. Are you having problems with your dogs behaviour? Then submit your problems and get help from other members. Do you have some excellent dog training advice? then submit your details here to help others.

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  #21 (permalink)  
Old 18-05-2009, 01:07 PM
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Re: Training tips or advice on walking a strong dog

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Originally Posted by goodvic2 View Post
I am not dismissing trainers, but I think it is far easier for owners to take a dog to a training class rather than apply the principles of leadership. Leadership is about being consistant 100% of the time and being the boss. I do have to say, that this is not applicable to most of the people on this forum, becuase everybody here is absolutely dedicated to their dogs. But there is a lack of information of this way of being with your dogs. "Training" is readily available while talk of the pack theory/dominance is not. Some might argue that that if I was correct then it would be the other way around. Who knows......
Hang on in a previous post you were saying that it's all about respect and a dog will only follow you if they respect you, so this is about leadership, and you were stressing the importance of this.

I on the other hand am saying that the two go hand in hand, you need to establish leadership by controlling resources/activities (not through dominance), AND you need to train the dog.

If you focus on the OP's problem of large strong lab pulling on leash, then in my opinion the approach of establishing leadership AND training, is a practical approach. Of course the OP can go to group training classes, but I would recommend she makes sure the trainer uses positive methods, leash corrections etc. simply aren't necessary.


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Originally Posted by goodvic2 View Post
You talk about positive training methods, whilst I agree that this is fine for your average dog. If you have a dog with serious behavioural issues, then I feel that another approach is needed.
This is where I disagree and is unfortunately the mistake many dog owners and indeed certain trainers make. A dog with behaviour problems should not be subjected to harsh or punitive methods. For example if a dog displays fear aggression then the last thing you want to do is pop or jerk the leash everytime another dog is present or approaching, this just says to the dog "hey I was right, the presence of other dogs makes bad things happen."

What you do want to do it take the dog through a behaviour modification program by applying desensitisation and counter conditiniong, using both classical conditioning and operant conditioning. By doing this the fear aggressive dog will eventually see other dogs as predictors of good things. Yes, it takes time, consistency, patience, there is no quick fix, but I'd rather have this outcome.


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Originally Posted by goodvic2 View Post
Example. My problem dog Max has, from day 1 tried to fight with the dog next door, through the fence. I openly admit, that I created this problem by not addressing it correctly from day 1 ( I knew nothing about dog psychology and this is part of the reason why I try to assist others). I have tried almost everything at this fence, including working with a behaviourist who has used positive methods. Because of the intensity he gets to, if the dog is the other side, absolutely nothing works. I got a new rescue in January, Sammy, who I actually got to try to help my guys. The only thing that can stop Max from doing this, is Sammy. When he gets out of control , Sammy goes to the fence and nudges him away, if Max does not listen, then Sammy will bite him and then Max moves. This is what I mean by working with "what the dog knows". This is how they deal with each other and in my opinion, if you work with their psychology and not our own, then you have more success.
But this does not help change Max's behaviour, he will still display aggression right. So this approach just distracts him, but doesn't change his emotional response.

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Originally Posted by goodvic2 View Post
I think respect is used in all species. If you look at how dogs behave in the park. Some are totally disrespectful to others, they charge and bark, whilst a respectful dog will approach in a calmer manner and go through the greeting ritual.
Unfortunately many dogs are under-socialised and therefore lack social skills, they don't mean to be rude, but they simply never learned social skills. But again this is something that can be trained, and clicker training is a wonderul way of doing this for such dogs.

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Originally Posted by goodvic2 View Post
If somebody had given me the sort of advice on how to be the boss/pack leader, when I got my first 2 greek rescue dogs. I would never have ended up with the problems I have had and still do on occasions. There is no positive training you can give when you take on these sorts of dogs, who are so frightened of everything and everyone. What they needed from day 1 was for me to step up to the plate and show them I was the boss and I would take care of them. Instead I gave affection, I felt sorry for them and I brought every book on training, which did not help. I could barely touch them for the first few weeks. If I had had an understanding of dog psychology I would have realised that I was doing it all wrong.
Positive training methods would work for your dogs, but you would first need to change your mindset and beliefs about what it is dogs need from us humans. In a sense your belief in dominance/pack theory is holding you back.

So I guess on many posts we will just have to agree to disagree.

You might find it interesting to read these two blogs, both have fearful reactive dogs, and they have made great progress with their dogs using positive methods.

Boulder Dog » Blog Archive » Magic “Touch” for Fearful Dogs

Working with a fearful, scared or shy dog

I have suggested these because 90% of dogs display aggression because of fear



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Originally Posted by goodvic2 View Post
This is why I am so passionate about this subject and if I can stop one person making the same mistakes I did, then it is worth it.

Your posts are always very informative and helpful to people, I just have a totally different perspective on it.
Apologies to OP for going off topic
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old 18-05-2009, 01:57 PM
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Re: Training tips or advice on walking a strong dog

Thank you for the links, it always good to hear success stories about other people x
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Old 19-05-2009, 10:34 AM
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Re: Training tips or advice on walking a strong dog

I have problems with Zeus pulling sometimes. I use the halty to aid me walking Zeus. He's generally okay with me, just my sister and dad moan that he's too strong and pulls.

Doesn't help that my dad takes him out on a extendable lead and lets him wonder off when he gets to the field. *am I right in saying this?*

But he's slowly getting better.
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Old 19-05-2009, 12:48 PM
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Re: Training tips or advice on walking a strong dog

Quote:
If you focus on the OP's problem of large strong lab pulling on leash, then in my opinion the approach of establishing leadership AND training, is a practical approach. Of course the OP can go to group training classes, but I would recommend she makes sure the trainer uses positive methods, leash corrections etc. simply aren't necessary.
Completely agree Personally, I would try a headcollar with this dog (just to break the intensity of the pulling habit and make it a bit easier on the dogs neck and owners hands/arms) and couple that with some good heel training and I would have thought that would sort it with time and commitment and the headcollar would no longer be needed. Labs love their food so, I would have thought clicker training would be ideal. With some really high value food rewards like liver cake or frankfuter.

Quote:
This is where I disagree and is unfortunately the mistake many dog owners and indeed certain trainers make. A dog with behaviour problems should not be subjected to harsh or punitive methods. For example if a dog displays fear aggression then the last thing you want to do is pop or jerk the leash everytime another dog is present or approaching, this just says to the dog "hey I was right, the presence of other dogs makes bad things happen."

What you do want to do it take the dog through a behaviour modification program by applying desensitisation and counter conditiniong, using both classical conditioning and operant conditioning. By doing this the fear aggressive dog will eventually see other dogs as predictors of good things. Yes, it takes time, consistency, patience, there is no quick fix, but I'd rather have this outcome.
Completely agree again. I think that miss diagnosis of problem behaviours- such as aggression when the dog is labelled as a "dominant dog" is very often a massive injustice to our pets. Dominance/pack theory was a theory that was developed observing wolves and whilst there is evidence that there is something in it, much research has been done on behaviour in canines and how they learn etc...
Like you said in cases of fear aggression, negative/punishing methods just reinforce the fear. If a dog is fearful of other dogs and everytime the dog reacts you spray the dog in the face with water (attempting to "correct" the reaction) you very often just reinforce the negative associations with other dogs. Also correcting a dog for a warning growl can also lead to increased aggression in some cases- as the dog *may* skip parts of the aggression scale and show a more severe reaction.
These sorts of problems are sometimes seen with resource guarding- a problem which many associate with the "dominant dog". It has since been suggested that this is not the case and that resource guarding is actually a form of fear- "fear of loosing desired object" (I think there is a book by Jean Donaldson called "Mine!" that my friend says was really good that tackled this problem- not read it myself). Often, correcting the dog when they growl as a warning in cases of resource guarding worsen the aggression as the dog realises that their previous reaction did not work- therefore the use a higher level of aggression.

Like you said behaviour modification IMO is in the long run the best way of tackling fear and fear aggression related problems as it modifies the emotional state of the dog in "fearful situation" and changes the dog's perception of the situation from "something to be feared" to a "positive" situation to be in.
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Old 23-05-2009, 05:23 PM
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Re: Training tips or advice on walking a strong dog

Quote:
Originally Posted by goodvic2 View Post
Hey no prob, hope it helps. The right lead is important, but it is about respect. If you dog respects you then he will walk next to you. If he does not see you as the leader then he will be pulling you. People often make the mistake of thinking it is about the collar or lead etc, when in actual fact it is about them seeing you as the boss!

Best of luck x
PMSL!!!

Lots of dogs pull on the way TO the field, but don't pull on the way back... presumably they don't respect their owner on the way there but suddenly respect them on the way back?

And there was me thinking that they were probably not pulling on the way home because they were more tired......
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Old 23-05-2009, 07:09 PM
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Re: Training tips or advice on walking a strong dog

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PMSL!!!

Lots of dogs pull on the way TO the field, but don't pull on the way back... presumably they don't respect their owner on the way there but suddenly respect them on the way back?

And there was me thinking that they were probably not pulling on the way home because they were more tired......
Just out of interest, how many dogs do you have? Are they rescue's or have you had them since a pup?
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Old 23-05-2009, 07:12 PM
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Re: Training tips or advice on walking a strong dog

I trained Sky to walk properly from as young as possible. The best way I found was to put her in a harness and everytime she pulled, stop and pull her back until she's beside you.

I don't mind her walking in front of me, but I do not like her pulling at all. She's 6 months and already a big dog so I need the control.

Of course, she still pulls when she wants to sniff something really interesting but other than that, she walks really well.

You should be able to do this with your dog, even though he is now two. Good luck, patience and perserverence will win in the end x
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Old 23-05-2009, 09:22 PM
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Re: Training tips or advice on walking a strong dog

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Just out of interest, how many dogs do you have? Are they rescue's or have you had them since a pup?

I've got two - one from a pup, one from the age of 7. How is that relevant?
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Old 23-05-2009, 10:48 PM
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Re: Training tips or advice on walking a strong dog

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Originally Posted by Colliepoodle View Post
PMSL!!!

Lots of dogs pull on the way TO the field, but don't pull on the way back... presumably they don't respect their owner on the way there but suddenly respect them on the way back?

And there was me thinking that they were probably not pulling on the way home because they were more tired......
Lol. Very good point. My dog used to do this when he was younger. Pull on the 10 metre stretch towards the park and but other than that on the way there and back walked well. So he slipped into a state of lack of respect for me in that 10 metre stretch? Not so sure about that one myself. I think he was just keen to get to the park and have a good walk.

He soon learnt to stop when he realised that every time he did pull on that stretch I'd just turn around, so he was better off walking nicely as he knew how to and getting to the park quicker.

I can see where you are coming from goodvic2- but in my opinion "dominance" and leadship isn't by any means the only thing that dictates canine behaviour. Everyone has their own perspective on things though, so fair enough. That's just my opinion on it
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Last edited by lemmsy; 23-05-2009 at 10:51 PM..
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Old 23-05-2009, 11:13 PM
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Re: Training tips or advice on walking a strong dog

Thing is, taking the "going through doorways before your dog" thing as an example - chances are, if you start making a point of making your dog wait for you to go first, especially if you teach using treats or praise, then the dog WILL start taking more notice of you, become more responsive etc. But it won't be because of any "dominance" malarkey - it's just that you have become more worthy of note. More INTERESTING.

I'm not saying that some aspects of rank reduction etc don't work - simply that they aren't working because of anything to do with dominance. They work because of the training aspect.
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