Hi ladies

Just letting you know what l have done today.

1/ l walked the 3 dogs separately and did some recall and sits with them. In fact before they each got out for a walk,l decided that they would have to be calm and sit for me to put the leads on. Schmoo was the hardest. He knows how to sit but he doesn't like to sit and have the halti put on him. Scamper also took one look at the halti and did a runner but l encouraged him to come back. I also made them wait back till l opened the door and went out and then called them out. I did this on the way back as well.

2/. When the little ones jumped up for attention l pushed them down and said off! It was hard.

3/. When l was sitting at my computer and they wanted to jump up on my knee. I ignored them. A minute later l called them to me and picked them up - so it was sort of on my terms.

Tonight is the real test. Weather is horrible, windy and cold. I have already told my hubby that he is not to complain if they play up as that will just encourage them to carry on. He thinks l wont be able to resist the whining but l have a plan. I am going to bed half an hour before he does and he can put the dogs on the floor. Hopefully l will be asleep before the crying begins!!!

Will let you know how it goes tomorrow x Kittysoo

Just an update on last night.

Things didn't go all to plan when hubby went to bed before me!
Anyway put both pups on their bed and switched the light out. Schmoo was very good and took to it straight away but Scamper whimpered for about 5 minutes. I sneaked a peak after it went quiet and could just pick up a white glow in the dark curled up.

Poor Seiger though! He lay on the laminate floor as the each pup chose a bed for themselves. Will make sure the smaller beds are in the bedroom tonight so he can have some comfort.

The problem arose when l needed the loo. All 3 woke up and headed out the door. I just managed to grab Scamper before he deposited a puddle on the floor. Put all 3 outside and then spent 5 minutes in prayer hoping that they would'nt bark! It was 4am in the morning. Thankfully all quiet and back to bed for another 5 minutes of whimpering from Scamper and then sleep.

This morning though Scamper weed on the bedroom floor before we managed to get up so not good start to the day.

I will keep this up though l must admit l do miss them cuddling up to me like one pack. It always felt like we were bonding.

Finally when l got up this morning Scamper the baby of the family wouldn't come to me first thing. Don't know if he was sulking or just lazy! Probably lazy as dogs think in the now!

Anyway got to go. x Kittysoo

Hi Kittysoo - I have been following your thread and read the post on re balancing the pack by Karen with interest too. I think we break just about every rule anyway just to let you know that you and your dogs are not alone as Tootsie has slept on the floor in her own bed for the last 2 nights. Only problem is that she gets me up early on a morning though but I think it is when the heating comes on so I am going to move the timer on a bit to see if that works. I did some sit, stay and come with Toots last night but it started to sleet and rain so we had to do a mad dash for home keep with it and I hope you see some inprovement soon. It does feel a bit hard on them though when they are so cute but Im sure it will be worth it in the end.

All the best tootsiesmum

Thanks Tootsie Mum

It's nice to know that l am not the only one going through it. I know that sounds bad but when l was in labour, l managed to make myself feel better thinking that somewhere in the world, some other poor moo was going through the same thing - so l did'nt feel so alone!!!!

I feel that l have let down all my mutts by not being a proper pack leader but we humans are a sucker for big eyes and cute noses!

Anyway last night once l switched the light out all went quiet. I sneaked a peak and Seiger was in his own bed, Schmoo and Scamper were curled up in the little bed together - so looks like that problem is solved. Thanks Karen - l owe you one.

The only thing is unfortunatly l managed to sneak out to the loo without letting them out but straight after hubby went too and managed to let all 3 out of the room. He ended up letting them all out and Scamper barked! Could have throttled dear husband for that.

Next morning at 7am - Scamper started whining to go out, let my hubby do that in revenge for last night but he was not quick enough - one wee and one poo later and loads of
moaning about how the dogs are mine bla de bla !!!!!

Tomorrow new regime. I will get up and do it - l am not a very early riser - 8 am sounds about normal as l work in the afternoon. Also l was up late reading (yes a dog book!). Tonight early to bed and all that! I have also decided to take over the feeding of the dogs as well. I am going to really throw myself into this leadership thingy.

Bye the way how old is Tootsie? Do you have any problems with her? I think this is a great forum. I have learned more in the last couple of days than l have in the last 10 years on my own.

One more question for Karen or anyone else who knows what to do?
Scamper (Jack Russell)was born early November last year. He has only ever been with his litter mates and Mum and Mums owners. He has only been out in the garden in a run for a couple of hours a day. I have found him to be very agrophobic.

As soon as l start to get ready for the walk he literally runs away as quick as he can get! When l have taken him out he drags behind. When l let him off the lead in a safe place he seems to relax and actually runs around like a normal mutt. Possibly he has a lead and halti phobia actually!

Anyway my vet says that l should'nt take him out and that one day he will wonder why the other dogs are excited about going out and want to go! I think by that time he will be afraid of people, dogs and anything else? Any advice anyone?

Hi I know it's hard. They give you that look which melts the heart and brings on guilt. Little buggers lol!

The reason dogs can urinate like that is
1. they get woken and need the toilet!
2. They dislike being knocked of the top spot and urinate to make their territory. ( This is my Den how dare you not let me up there)

So what to do:

1. put them downstairs where they won't get disturbed, remember they have plently of company in each other.
2. carry on with them in the bedroom and don't get up for a pee.... Difficult though this one
Welldone though you seem to have got them done without too much of a problem.

I know how you feel when you say you miss their cuddles and feel like your missing out on the pack bonding. It's hard but try to look at it this way

Cuddles are a human thing. Yes dogs like them but it's not top of the list for them. Being on the bed isn't bonding in their minds. They just see it as rack elevation and they like the warmth!

Really I have to say that dogs shouldn't be in the bedroom atall. Infact they shouldn't be upstairs atall, especially while your re balancing the pack structure. You'll get much quicker results if you limit their access to the whole house.

This program if followed to the letter will re construct the pack structure within two to three weeks. Then you'll be amazed at the difference in you dogs.

When this is done you can re introduce some things.

It's about your dog asking you if you don't mind if it gets up. By controlling your dogs actions you have the upper hand. The dog looks to you to see what you want it to do. This then can transfere into the outside world.

Three weeks time if you apply all the program correctly and you'll see problems fade. They'll look put out at times, sulky and sad. However they are just getting used to the new way, and boy they'll love you ten times more in the end. Don't pander to their sulks ignore them and they will soon come round.

Another I'd suggest is making your dogs do things just for the sake of it... Like getting on their beds sitting staying ect. You can reward them for doing these things but don't give titbits all the time. Give affection too and sometimes nothing atall. This is how dogs view this:
1. I do I get treat... yey!
2. I do I get treat or affection...yey!
3. I do I don't get treat or affection but the possibility is there that I might because mums in charge So I do what I'm told!
Good luck your doing great you'll be the alpha leader in no time.

Thanks Karen

You are doing wonders for my confidence as well! I feel l have achieved something by just getting them off the bed.

If l do make them stay downstairs the only room that l can put them in is the sitting room as the cats like to come and go through the kitchen catflap, along the hall and upstairs.

If they were in there l am sure that they would spend the night on the sofa and chairs. Apart from covering them with dining table chairs every night to stop them getting up, l won't know be able to stop them.

Should l just let them sleep where they want for now in the sitting room - (l have a dog gate over the door by the way) and work on keeping them off the sofas during the day?

Tonight they will be sleeping downstairs. It will definatley be hard for Seiger as he is 12 and has spent his life with full access to the house. He is getting a bit frailer now to. Mind you he does like to be near the pups.

Also l am about to inform dear hubby that the baby gates to the cat room is going back on the stairs so that they don't get access to upstairs. The cats will be able to jump over it to have a place of safety.

The poor dogs won't know whats going on but its for the best l know.

About making them do other things. I do do sits and recall every now and then during the day and give them a treat, but you are right - Schmoo has become very food orientated.
He will not sit to have his halti put on for his walks unless he sees me put my hand in my pocket. He and Scamper as well really hate the halti but when l have tried not using it he chokes himself and coughs!

PS One of my friends who has moved to Devon used to have 2 GSD who were never allowed to place a foot on the stairs. She had wooden stairs. She never had baby gates or dog gates. They slept in the kitchen ( it was a massive old house and that room was the hubb of the house) and was'nt even allowed in the sitting room. I used to think that she was quite cruel but actually her dogs were the best behaved dogs l had ever met!

Scamper needs socialised in my opinion. I don't believe in closeting dogs because of their insecturities. Some people say I'm mean but it's not natural for a dog to be scared of the out doors. Following your vets advice won't solve the problem and IMO will compound it.

If he's fine off lead then he sees the leash as a control device..which it is!
He doesn't like it and want's to do his own thing. But that's not good enough. the pack re structuring inside the house will help over come this. Also I suggest you keep moving. Sounds silly but when we turn and show atention to them when they are in a timid state we empower and cement their behaviour. So try to keep moving forward if he drops down then turn back lift his back end up and try to get him on his front paws. once his done this stand him up and move off again. It's a case of conditioning the mind to stay on all fours. Try titbits that might work too, again follow the rule of might get one might not. You want your dog doing this for you not for the treat.

Try running with him in spurts then stopping and running off again. To get his mind thinking different. Dogs tend to have difficulty thinking of more than one thing at atime. So keep moving forward ,use titbits to encourage forward movement.

The walks very important too. How we walk with our dogs effects their behaviour.

I suggest:

You sit with the lead and call him over give him a titbit and slide the leash on. let him wander off for a while then recall him. pick up the leash and move to the door. make him sit calmly by the door. Don't move outside until he is. Open the door and keeping him behind you step outside leading him behind you, don't look at him though. when outside make him sit again. give him calm affection or titbit then move off. Keep him at your side. Although he's timid i wouldn't let him rule the walk so don't let him get infront. don't let him wander ,sniff or make any choices at the moment. Move quickly as you can engaging his attention. This might work it's hard to say not seeing him. Remember if you expect him to behave in a certain way he will. You and your dog need to leave the past behind to move foward.

It's hard to keep them off when your not there once they have already been aload up. So it's not ideal to leave them where they can choose to do so, however you are keeping them downstairs and off your bed so it's much better than before. If they jump down when they see you at least there's a level of respect coming though. Ideally beds on floor in kitchen but if that can't be done then you have too work with what you have. It's a possibility they may become distructive in annoyance so becarefull what you leave lying around. better safe than sorry.
You really are doing well. And I bet your friends GSD were very happy dogs because of their rules and boundries.

That is so right about breaking the rules, we were told at puppy class to try and not pick and and carry the puppy to much, but sometimes when I walk mine around the streets there is broken glass on the ground, theres no way I want my pup to get hurt so I carry him over it, he dosn't mind it and always gives me kisses (whether I want them or not!). I think its all about finding the way that works for you, I have never met two animals (of any type including humans) that had the same personaitly and i think that easily gets forgotten when reading books and trainning tips. I think this forum is great as you get ideas of what to try, but its always important to not get dishartend that just because something works for everyone else it dosn't for you and your pooch!

Sounds like your trying really hard, and I wish you best of luck with your trainning, its funny how one thing gets better and another thing goes down hill or a new problem starts. But in a strange way thats kind of the fun of it all!

Hi Gemma
How old is your lovely pup? Do you have any little niggles?

Only an hour to go and then bedtime! I have tidyed up the sitting room and put everything out of reach ( well l hope l have - time will tell). I have just put their beds downstairs and they have been fine so far wandering about having a little sniff. Seiger is actually having a little dognap as l type.

I will let you know know tomorrow how it goes. It could be a long long night!!!!