Originally Posted by Jenny Olley

As Tripod says above John Fisher did say he was wrong regards pack leader stuff, he was one of the founders of coape, and their behavioural courses do not teach pack leader.
Wolves only pack re size of available prey and breeding rights, not all wolves form packs, for anyone wanting a deeper understaning read Ray Coppingers book Dogs.
Re aggressive and out of control dogs, they don't need you to be pack leader they need to be trained, socialised and brought back under contol.

Originally Posted by Jenny Olley

I base them on the comments in his last book diary of a dottie dog doctor, and talking to his partners at coape.

Originally Posted by jconline

Thank you. I'm all for stamping out those who think they have to be a harsh, mean and cruel task master. Having an understanding of the need to be taken seriously and seen as in charge is what I promote. Coape's Dr June Williams agrees. "Dogs need a parental, guiding form of leadership that is established when a pet owner can consistently set clear limits, communicate the rules by immediately rewarding the correct behaviors and preventing access to or removing the rewards for undesirable behaviors before these behaviors are reinforced.'

Rules and limits. You can dress it up how you like but everyone ends up agreeing that while dogs might not be wolves or pack animals in the true sense of the term, they need rules and limits, as well as rewarding and encouraging the good behaviour. Dogs do not ignore bad behaviour. Dogs do not turn their back on this and that. They do not hand treats out. A dog will 'correct' another dog for unwanted behaviour. This is where we start to disagree. I believe calm and well timed corrections are fine. Others would never dream of correcting their dog. It's another debate that will go on and on.

Originally Posted by jconline

Ray Coppinger's book is an interesting read, but there are just as many highly respected people out there that simply disagree. Dr. Frank Beach performed a 30-year study on dogs at Yale and UC Berkeley. Nineteen years of the study was devoted to social behavior of a dog pack. (Not a wolf pack. A DOG pack.) Some of his findings:


* Male dogs have a rigid hierarchy.
* Female dogs have a hierarchy, but it's more variable.
* When you mix the sexes, the rules get mixed up. Males try to follow their constitution, but the females have "amendments."
* Young puppies have what's called "puppy license." Basically, that license to do most anything. Bitches are more tolerant of puppy license than males are.
* The puppy license is revoked at approximately four months of age. At that time, the older middle-ranked dogs literally give the puppy hell -- psychologically torturing it until it offers all of the appropriate appeasement behaviors and takes its place at the bottom of the social hierarchy. The top-ranked dogs ignore the whole thing.
* There is NO physical domination. Everything is accomplished through psychological harassment. It's all ritualistic.
* A small minority of "alpha" dogs assumed their position by bullying and force. Those that did were quickly deposed. No one likes a dictator.
* The vast majority of alpha dogs rule benevolently. They are confident in their position. They do not stoop to squabbling to prove their point. To do so would lower their status because...
* Middle-ranked animals squabble. They are insecure in their positions and want to advance over other middle-ranked animals.
* Low-ranked animals do not squabble. They know they would lose. They know their position, and they accept it.
* "Alpha" does not mean physically dominant. It means "in control of resources." Many, many alpha dogs are too small or too physically frail to physically dominate. But they have earned the right to control the valued resources. An individual dog determines which resources he considers important. Thus an alpha dog may give up a prime sleeping place because he simply couldn't care less.

Originally Posted by Jenny Olley

To be honest for every study there is another study that disproves what the first study said. I base my beliefs on what I have seen living and working with dogs for years, not other peoples stuff. I don't disagree with most of what is said above, but most of it could also apply to humans, so therefore I don't believe it proves the pack theory

Originally Posted by jconline

I agree completely and don't push the pack theory at all, just the need of some dogs to see an authority figure, or their need for some rules and limits. This role or need, people term as 'pack leader', then others get really caught up in the whole 'dogs aren't pack animals' thing. It all gets a bit muddy and totally off point. I don't think even Cesar Millan himself believes dogs are pack animals in the sense that if left to their own devices, they'd roam together as a pack. Of course they wouldn't. They be scattered across L.A!

How long did the COAPE course take you? Does it prepare you for actually getting your hands on dogs with issues?

Originally Posted by jconline

Pet dogs are not feral dogs. Pet dogs are not wolves. Pet dogs are not scavengers or free roaming. Not my pet dogs anyway. Every dog behaviour course on the planet will teach you about pack structure. Dogs are pack animals whether you like it or not. This doesn't mean they should be treated like wolves. Your comments are totally irrelevant. I haven't mentioned wolves. But the pack aspect to dogs does stem from their origins, the wolf. Again, this is scientific fact. Of course they're not mini wolves. Evolution, human intervention etc has altered them on every level, but many behavioural traits are still hard wired on a genetic level and the dog has the wolf to thank for them. I suggest you also study a bit of dog psychology and not just dog training. I also suggest you speak to someone who has a nightmare dog they can't near because it has become the dominant pack member. All dogs are not the same, and many owners have to consider pack structure in order to resolve issues. Dogs will happily accept a human as a pack leader figure. What experience of this do you have? I've lived with a pack of dogs for a year. I had a Rottweiler, a GSD, two staffies, a Jack Russell, an American Bulldog, and a lab cross. They weren't wolves. they weren't free roaming. They weren't wild. They were all domesticated pet dogs. And they were without doubt a pack. And I was without doubt the pack leader. The idea that dog training is on one hand and dog behaviour is on the other, and never the twain shall meet, is an old fashioned opinion held by outdated dinosaurs. It's high time people learned to combine positive reward dog training with knowing a little about how dogs think. This has nothing to do with Cesar Millan. I have Nottingham Trent University's Animal Behaviour Degree course in front of me, and here's one part of it...Social behaviour of the dog - the social system, social behaviour of wolves, feral
dogs, domestic dogs...are you suggesting the Doctors at the University should go and study the subject a little more because they teach about the origins of the dog, mention the word wolf, and teach about pack structure and the social system? What is it that you believe if you think dogs have nothing to do with wolves and are not pack animals? I'm curious. and what's your experience to so readily criticise others?

Originally Posted by Jenny Olley

Both myself and my husband have done the coape diploma course, it is run over 1 year, when I did it you went for 3 residential weekends, I think its 4 now, plus written work in between. In my opinion it is purely theory, you didn't see a dog, so no way.
We were both already dog trainers and dealing with behavioural problems, and wanted to broaden our knowledge.

Originally Posted by jconline

Yes, this is the problem, and what I'm working on at the moment. I'm in the process of getting a course accredited which involves a 'practical' element. The problem with the accreditation process is that you basically say goodbye to your course once that happens. I'm trying to find a happy balance between getting accredited, but keeping control of my course. So far I have a University seal of approval and can put their logo on my coursework, but can't call it accredited. Nothing's ever easy.

Originally Posted by delir

Is there any information on how stray dogs behave in cities?
My layman observation is that when the leader wants the other dogs to obey he will bite them in the throat,
and I've seen that many times.