The fact that his siblings are OK doesn't mean his DA is all down to nurture. His siblings can be as genetically different as the gap between, well, me and my sister! We were different in everything, temperament (her, anxious and worried about failure; me confident and laid back), certain abilities (she did MSc in maths, I could do it to O level - beyond that, I was in over my head; I was the practical one).
As siblings, we could have these diffences because we were just siblings; not identical twins! We collected different baskets of genes from the same parents. The same could have happened between Flynn and his littermates.

I find this a fascinating topic. There's many threads on here where there seems to be an assumption that DA is down to faults in the owner and the way they've trained the dog. I think there's a lot more to it than that, some dogs are simply more prone to aggression and it may not be anyone's to blame. Friends of mine, a nice couple, had two Staffies - one was DA, the other a total sweetie. They were both well trained, well socialised. After the DA one died from old age, they got a 3rd Staffy, a rescue this time rather than a pup as the first two had been - and he turned out very well.

I think the way a person (or dog, or other animal) responds to what happens to them is largely genetic, in terms of neurochemistry and the production of stress hormones. Some shrug off the bad stuff and move on; others are traumatized and changed for the worse.

That is what I was trying to say but you have explained it much better.

I have to say it really annoys me when all the blame for an aggressive dog is placed on the owner. None of us here want an aggressive dog. I'm sure none of us like having an aggressive dog. And I'm sure at least most people are doing their best to change the behaviour and fix the problem. Seeing people say it's all the owners fault, it's because of how they raised/trained/socialised the dog and things like that really does make you feel like absolute **** sometimes.

I knew a guy with 2 Staffies. He'd raised them both the same way, socialised them both, taken them to classes, trained them, treated them well and done his absolute best to see they became happy, well adjusted adult dogs. One was fine. The other was extremely dog aggressive. We used to avoid each other on a regular basis lol. I got talking to him one day when I didn't have Rupert with me and we spent a while commiserating over our anti social dogs.

I don't expect we'll ever really know the answer. It must be a bit of both, you could probably train any breed to do any job but some will be better than others at it.
On the other side Jaz a gsd is so similar in temperment to my last dog, a lab x, very laid back, easily contented etc that it must also have a lot to do with upbringing.

I wonder whether you could enlist the help of a local dog owner to help Flynn overcome some of his fears. Could you put a sign up in the vets and / or a local pet shop asking for someone to walk in parallel to you?

Someone locally had a problem with a Mal x who was only ever pavement walked with a muzzle on, I approached them and offered to help in this way with a very non reactive dog. They never got in touch Some people can't be helped!

Its the whole nature/nurture thing isn’t it.
Like others, I think some dogs are more prone to certain behaviors, but the behavior still has to be nurtured to be brought out or not.

I agree with the premise that different breeds are more suited to certain tasks. To quote a friend of mine, “That’s why cowboys don’t round up cattle with chihuahuas while riding clydesdales.”

But just wanted to interject about the protection sports. Proper protection training is not about training a dog to be aggressive, its about developing and working off the dog’s play drive, their prey drive and for some, their fight drive. But aggression is most certainly not the goal nor even desirable in those doing protection training “right”

[QUOTE=Burrowzig;1061777248]I find this a fascinating topic.
QUOTE]

i do too! thats why i started the thread i am so interested in what makes the dogs tick!

as i said my last dog billy had such a wonderful temperament but was just aloof to dogs. he wasnt socialised as when we took him on walks he used to panic and slip out of his lead and run home, he also didnt like the park, he would look at us as if to say what to do here? he didnt have many natural dog instincts and liked to sit with people and cuddle. he never raised a lip to another dog or person even when the vet shoved his hand up his bum!

alfie is a dogs dog and loves the park and walks and play time along with loving his cuddles. he isnt aggressive either.

i find it amazing when people raise two or more dogs the same way and have a placid and aggressive dog in the same household which makes me believe alot is in the breed and temperament of the dogs but also other environmental factors too!

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Behaviour is always nature and nurture. There's a whole new field of study for it: it's called epigenetics which literally means 'above the genes'.

Genes are predispositions but are not the cause of behaviours entirely. Even hardwired traits are susceptible to modification, depending on the environmental input.

Instead of thinking in terms of aggression, think in terms of fear periods and 'hazard avoidance behaviour'. It has been shown that different breeds have different onset times of fear periods. For example, German Shepherds' fear period onsets around 35 days, whilst a Cavalier King Spaniel's is around 55 days. I wouldn't regard GSDs as more aggressive, only more prone to developing fearful behaviour around unknown or unhabituated stimuli. At the same time, CKSs have a much longer socialisation window and thus have more opportunities to become habituated to a wider range of stimuli, making aggressive (fearful) responses less likely to occur.

But we all know a very social GSD which indicates that socialisation will have a great effect if carried out properly.

There is a lot of literature on epigenetics now, it's a super interesting area. A good book is Evolution in Four Dimensions:

Evolution in Four Dimensions: Genetic, Epigenetic, Behavioral, and Symbolic Variation in the History of Life (Philosophical Issues in Biology & Psychology): Amazon.co.uk: Eva Jablonka, Marion Lamb: 9780262600699: Books

Hey don't be too harsh on yourself!! I sympathise as I have 2 bitches who are fear aggressive for different reasons. Katy was 12 months and totally unsocialised when I adopted her.. she got on great with my other 2 girls so I would never have thought she might have issues with other dogs. She came into season on the first day I brought her home which meant keeping her away from other dogs and when I did start walking her boy! did it become apparent how nervous she was of other dogs. Then there is Scully who wa always great with other dogs until she got attacked and now she air snaps at every dog who comes too close because she is frightened and probably thinks attack is the best form of defence . And it's not easy walking them and I so wish that they could have the happy sociable life that my lovely lab Roxy has. And maybe one day they will because I am having some success with LAT. But until then I have to think that I need to keep their walks as stress free as I can for them, so their walks are different and not what I would want for them, but probably just what they need. So Flynn is probably enjoying his one on one time with you and counting his lucky stars that you, his best pal and protector, are keeping him safe from all those scary nasty dogs out there!!
It's not easy, but we all get there in the end.. and if we don't.. well, not every one is cut from the same cloth. I doubt that Flynn thinks his walks are s**t..they sound like just what he needs.

I agree with Smokeybear, I think that's it a combination of both, although I do think that basic nerve strength has alot to do with it and that is genetic.

There was a study on two different lines of pointers (which i forget the name of), Line A which were all strong nerved, friendly sociable dogs and Line E who were weak nerved, unfriendly, unsocial dogs. The results form the breeding were that AA dogs dsiplayed A type temperaments, EE dogs dislayed E type temperaments and early EA crosses displayed type A temperaments but further down the line all EA crosses dispalyed type E temperaments, which led to the conclusion that weak nerves and anxiety (therefore potential aggression) are genetically dominant. Ergo if you have a dog with a naturally weak temperament, then although it can be improved upon by training and socialisation, that dog will never be "bomb proof".

My first Rott was a breeding bitch who came to me at the age of 5 (for fostering!!) and stayed with me until her death 10 years later. She had lived in a cage all her life, never been socialised with anyone or anything except her breeder, the sire and the pups she bore yet she was "bomb proof". She'd never been in a house, yet house trained within a week, was fine with every type of animal you can think of, great with all people of all ages, not bothered by noises, storms or anything like that. She got attacked a couple of times by other dogs but never responded agressively, other than defending herself using minimum force and never bore a grudge. She had nerves of steel. My current Rott is the same.

My Dane on the other hand is lovely boy - with us. He's fine with other Danes but hates most other dogs, doesn't like people (outside of his "circle of trust") except kids and yet he was extensively socialised as a pup (i'm told - he was a rescue) which continued when he came to us. He is unfailingly obedient, walks beautifully on the lead and has excellent recall but every now and then he'll have a funny five minutes and behave like a total arse. He can be unpredictable.

I've had trainers, behaviourists, read every book going, studied Canine Behavioural Pyschology and passed with distinction. I've changed his diet, had him tested for everything you can think of, you name it i've done it and i've now come to the conclusion that he is the way he is - my muddled boy. It's his personality, one minute he'll be fine, the next he'll spook or freak out and there's nothing that I can do about it so it just needs to be managed.

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