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Dog Training and Behaviour Discuss dog training and behaviour problems in this section. Are you having problems with your dogs behaviour? Then submit your problems and get help from other members. Do you have some excellent dog training advice? then submit your details here to help others.

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Old 08-12-2011, 08:41 AM
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Clicker Training?

I am thinking about starting to clicker train Finlay, to hopefully smooth over some behavioural issues he has currently. As he's 16 months old, is it too late to have much of an effect on his behaviour, and would he still catch on quickly?

One thing that concerns me about clicker training is that the clicker is the replacement for any verbal praise. Does that mean that I would have to have the clicker on me at all time, or can I still use 'good boy' as his praise for good behaviour when casually training him in the house for example.

I hope this makes sense Thank you
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Old 08-12-2011, 09:07 AM
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Re: Clicker Training?

Definitely not too late. Most dogs cotton on really quickly and enjoy learning this way.
You do not need to carry one all the time.
In fact at first it is best to have dedicated clicker sessions when the dog knows he is about to start learning something new. During the clicker sessions, the clicker becomes the signal that a reward is coming. That reward is usually food so verbal praise is not also necessary and in fact it can be better to conduct your sessions in silence. That way the dog becomes focused on one thing only and won't be confused. The click is an unambiguous marker that YES, he got it right. If he didn't get it right, no click, no reward. You can still train without a clicker in the usual way or many people substitute a word for the click. The clicker (or word) is only needed when teaching or shaping a new behaviour and will be gradually phased out once the behaviour is learned.
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Old 08-12-2011, 09:12 AM
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Re: Clicker Training?

I don't use the clicker instead of verbal praise, I use both. Click then give a treat and praise. I've found Rupert works better that way than if I leave out the praise. However, I've found that he learns much slower if I just use my clicker word (yay) instead of the actual clicker. I charged the word the same way but it's not the distinctive sound the clicker is. I use "yay!" when he does something I like but I'm unable to actually click.
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Old 08-12-2011, 09:14 AM
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Re: Clicker Training?

I use the clicker trainer method but I say "Yes" to him instead of clicking as I keep loosing clickers :s

It's the only time I every say "yes" to him so he does associate that with doing something good much like a clicker.
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Old 08-12-2011, 10:06 AM
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Re: Clicker Training?

Quote:
One thing that concerns me about clicker training is that the clicker is the replacement for any verbal praise.
The clicker is an accurate marker, not a replacement for verbal praise.

All it does is mark the moment the dog does the required behaviour, to let him know he got it right and a reward is coming. That's usually a food treat, though some dogs are more motivated by a toy.

There would be nothing wrong with for example, you're training your dog to sit, you click the second he sits to let him know it's right and for you to then say 'good boy, well done.' as you give him his reward.

For some examples you could watch tab289 or kikopup on youtube, both have a fair few videos on there. tab289 talks and praises his dog more than kikopup, though both do praise their dogs as well as click and treat them.

I've been using positive training methods with horses for some time now, but Elles is the first dog. I've learned more about it since getting a dog, as there's more training videos and books out there for dogs. It's great fun.
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Old 08-12-2011, 11:30 AM
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Re: Clicker Training?

Quote:
Originally Posted by lotlot View Post
I am thinking about starting to clicker train Finlay, to hopefully smooth over some behavioural issues he has currently. As he's 16 months old, is it too late to have much of an effect on his behaviour, and would he still catch on quickly?

One thing that concerns me about clicker training is that the clicker is the replacement for any verbal praise. Does that mean that I would have to have the clicker on me at all time, or can I still use 'good boy' as his praise for good behaviour when casually training him in the house for example.

I hope this makes sense Thank you
Never too late!

We rescued a 6 year old cross bread 2 months ago and he passed our local beginners training class last week using click and treat training methods!

When we first got him he would sometimes sit on command and sometimes respond to "in your bed". Since using the click and treat training method he now knows the following:

Sit
Bed
Ah, ah, ah
This way
Lets go
Sit and stay
Wait
Lie down
Off
Leave

and (unless there is a squirrel or cat in the vicinity!) he responds 95% of the time

This was all achieved by a dog who was kept locked up in a flat for the first 4 years of his life, spent the following 2 years in a dogs home and then moved from Spain to the UK prior to us adopting him. He was very shy and really lacked confidence; we started our training course just 2 weeks after he moved in so we really hadn't bonded with him properly. Seeing him come out of his shell over the 2 months we have had him has been lovely! He is becoming a very loyal, happy and confident dog who is very much part of our family.

We're now using clicker training to teach recall so we can let him off lead. Once that is working, we'll be working on him not pulling on his lead, again using a clicker - although he is only 17k and knee height, he is a Northern Inuit (Malamute / Husky / GSD) crossed with a Podenco (Ibizian Hound) so has a very strong pull on him !

Oh and we use the clicker to mark the behaviour (so click as he completes the behaviour correctly) and then give him the treat with a "good boy".
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Old 08-12-2011, 11:30 AM
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Re: Clicker Training?

Quote:
One thing that concerns me about clicker training is that the clicker is the replacement for any verbal praise Does that mean that I would have to have the clicker on me at all time, or can I still use 'good boy' as his praise
As folks have said clickers are markers for a reinforcer, it's usually quicker for the dog to learn with them.

But, your post seems to be missing something, which is a lack of clarity as to what you think is the reinforcer, reinforcers strengthen any behaviour, you say you use "good boy" & the way you've written it seems to mean that is the positive reinforcer your using.

If it is then a mere good boy is not an intense enough reinforcer for your dog, it is known as a pack drive reinforcer and used as a stimulant based on your dogs pyschology & your relationship, it builds the relationship & makes it the most important thing the dog wants to 'receive' outside a contact aggressive incident or fight & flight drives panic reaction.

If you want to use what you call praise as a pack drive reinforcer it has to be conditioned/developed as a reinforcer/reward (strengthener) first so the dog can define it as a reinforcer it wants.

To condition a strong pack drive reinforcer first, before using with more important commands, just keep your dog on a leash (if its likely to run off) and call it in 'come' then follow the same video whistle positive conditioning in the No1 video demo below, once its conditioned then use the clicker as per normal but instead of saying "good boy" - end of- use the interaction style below, the second video shows the different emotional responses of a dog which has been reinforced with treat reinforcers and a dog which has been reinforced with the pack drive positive reinforcer.

Hope you understand all that.

No1
Pre-Recall Whistle Reinforcement Conditioning - Dog Training - YouTube

No2.
Dogs Recall, Emotional Comparisons Of Dogs Response To Owners, 2 Different Training Reinforcers - YouTube
.
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Operant symbols

+P = Positive Punishment
-P = Negative Punishment
+R Positive Reinforcer
-R Negative Reinforcer

Last edited by SleepyBones; 08-12-2011 at 11:50 AM..
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Old 12-12-2011, 07:59 AM
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Re: Clicker Training?

Quote:
Originally Posted by lotlot View Post
I am thinking about starting to clicker train Finlay, to hopefully smooth over some behavioural issues he has currently. As he's 16 months old, is it too late to have much of an effect on his behaviour, and would he still catch on quickly?

One thing that concerns me about clicker training is that the clicker is the replacement for any verbal praise. Does that mean that I would have to have the clicker on me at all time, or can I still use 'good boy' as his praise for good behaviour when casually training him in the house for example.

I hope this makes sense Thank you
No it's not to late. I would reccomend that you go and see a trainer that is competant at clicker training. You would be surprised at the amount of people that get the "timing" wrong between the click and the reward. Also ask about free shaping and get your self trained on that too. Using the clicker of course.
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Old 12-12-2011, 08:19 AM
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Re: Clicker Training?

Quote:
Originally Posted by grandad View Post
No it's not to late. I would reccomend that you go and see a trainer that is competant at clicker training. You would be surprised at the amount of people that get the "timing" wrong between the click and the reward. Also ask about free shaping and get your self trained on that too. Using the clicker of course.
You can have as much time as you like between the click (secondary or conditioned reinforcer) and the primary reinforcer.

Something that a lot of people do not understand, which is why it is such a good method of training at a distance!

Where timing is CRUCIAL is the MARKING of the desired behaviour.

HTH
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Old 12-12-2011, 08:35 AM
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Re: Clicker Training?

Quote:
Originally Posted by smokeybear View Post
You can have as much time as you like between the click (secondary or conditioned reinforcer) and the primary reinforcer.

Something that a lot of people do not understand, which is why it is such a good method of training at a distance!

Where timing is CRUCIAL is the MARKING of the desired behaviour.

HTH
I was referring to the people (i've seen) that reward then click or even miss the slightest movement. I think it really important to be shown this and taught it 1-2-1.
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