Dont worry just keep up what your doing as I said, if you have seen an improvement in the dog, then the dogs telling you that you are doing OK.
Just be consistent put in the time, make sure he is exercised every day, that you do several bonding and training sessions, and basically any behaviour you dont want and thats not acceptable, then he gets ignored or put him out if needs be. He doesnt get any attention, treats etc. unless he is doing as you ask,or for calm good behaviour. Make sure he has a good supply of Kongs,chews,treat balls that I mentioned to chew on and destress and use in his wind down between activity time. When he is calm and sitting happily chewing make sure he gets praised then too. Too often we forget when dogs are actually being good and calm and relaxed that its something we should be praising them for. Once he has got a good structure and routine, and knows whats required of him, and what he cant get away with Im sure he will be fine. Laying foundations now is really important, because they can go through a teenage stage around 6/7months onwards, where even saintly ones before can go a bit off track, so the more you can teach him now and get him on track the better. I would look for a training class though still. One that uses firm fair kind reward based methods. That way you will actually have hands on support too and help with training that you can practice at home through the week.

__________________

i'd lay $10 that if U stand STILL & park a pea-sized tidbit of Provolone or Mozzarella under his nose, his teeth
will immediately release those pants - AND WHEN HE DOES, give him the tidbit - After all, he LET GO, right?
following that by asking him to "sit" with a palm-up hand signal gets an alternative behavior, which is
immediately rewarded by another tidbit; now he's looking at U, he's calm, & he's paying attention.

try it & see.

__________________
terry pride, APDT-Aus, apdt#1827, CVA, TDF
*wolves R wolves, dogs R dogs, + primates R us.*
tmp, sept-2007

i would discourage this as a method VERY strongly.

A -
U've just taught the pup that hands approaching his mouth are bad.

B -
U've just taught the pup that JAWS on hands or other body-parts are OK -
he just has to 'let go' before he's verbally scolded, physically punished, etc.

C -
now U have a pup who snaps like a Collie & instantly lets go - Congratulations!
he's going to slash people instead of bruising & puncturing them.
this is the worst advice i've seen on PF-uk in at least a month.

the vet, the groomer, the vet-tech, the dog-walker, & ANYONE who ever must handle this dog will curse U.

* he now firmly believes that human-hands hurt - he cannot allow them to get close to his head,
he must defend himself before they get a chance to grab him.

* dental or oral exams; GIVING MEDS; eye-exams; ear treatment or ear-cleaning; collars on or off;
CLIPPING ON A LEASH; catching the dog if he's gone astray... are now dangerous propositions, depending
on who U are, how well the dog knows U, & just how good U are at reading a dog's emotional state / intentions.

* here's a thought: CAP THIS BAD LESSON by teaching him that 'growls are punished'.
now U have a dog who will not even warn, but who deeply distrusts or fears human-hands anywhere north
of his shoulders or chest.


Odds are excellent that someone, sometime, will be sent to the E-R for stitches after casually trying to rub his ears,
pet his head, hold his collar, etc - & the person who gave this advice is the person who should IMO be sued,
for the injuries resulting, for the behavioral damage to the dog, & for the loss of their companion -
as the odds are also excellent that this dog will be dead, soon thereafter.

i hope the OP has more common-sense than to even attempt this once - let alone USE IT to "train".
i will state categorically that this is nothing short of abuse, & will end in a bad outcome - having seen the results
many times, i am very sure of this statement.
this is not an EITHER / OR outcome. It's a strawman argument.

U can effectively teach a pup bite-inhibition [a soft mouth] without grabbing his tongue,
pinching his lower palate between thumb & fingers as above, or any other painful, scary, intrusive
or uncomfortable handling on Ur part.

it's not only UN-necessary; it's actually counter-productive: it results in much-worse behaviors, like ducking
whenever someone reaches for the collar or the dog's head or face or ears, or worse yet, SNAPPING
at any stranger who attempts to touch the collar, ear, neck, mouth, face, etc.

that a dog who's been given these bad-lessons lets their owner or family members touch her/him
does not at all mean that same dog will tolerate the vet, a groomer, a good Samaritan trying to catch the dog, etc,
doing precisely the same thing; dogs may suffer the familiar person doing something they dislike intensely,
but punish anyone they don't know well who attempts the same maneuver.

oh, GREAT - U want the 5-YO to grab the dog's mouth by shoving a thumb under his tongue, & painfully
squeezing the mucous membranes of his lower jaw as if he was trapped by a pair of pliers?!

Children are not adults; they cannot imitate adult co-ordination, strength, or grasp,
their hands are smaller & weaker, THEY are smaller & weaker & clumsier - they cannot & SHOULD NOT
ever be told to punish, 'correct', manhandle or coerce a dog of any size, or for that matter, no child
should ever PUNISH or force or manhandle or coerce any pet, no matter what the species.

__________________
terry pride, APDT-Aus, apdt#1827, CVA, TDF
*wolves R wolves, dogs R dogs, + primates R us.*
tmp, sept-2007

This is the method that I've used on all of my dogs and none of them are afraid of my hands going near their mouths, they have all been shown and have no issues with strangers (judges) examining their mouths either.

Nowhere in my post did I once suggest to hurt the dog, holding firmly is not the same as holding it harshly and/or causing pain.

When I was using another forum someone suggested that the owners of a pyrenean mountain dog who was a bit tasty should just turn their back on the dog when it tried to bite. They did this and the dog jumped up and bit them on the back... is that really the kind of advice you expect me to agree with ??????????? It's stupid and dangerous !!!!!!!!!!!!!

I had trained my OH's pyrenean using the exact methods described on my post and he went from fluffy crocodile forever snapping at us and the other dogs to a beautiful docile gentle giant in just a few short weeks. When taking treats from our hands he would use just his lips and tongue which was great for us but even better for him was the time he was choking on a piece of cellophane wrapper that he'd picked up from somewhere. I had to pretty much dive down his throat to pull it out, now bear in mind that this was a 10 month old giant breed dog with teeth an inch long. I was able to open his mouth, put my face right upto... almost in his mouth to see what he was choking on and then pull it out, so my devilish and cruel methods probably helped save his life.

So the next time you get on your soap box and start dishing out the red dots, perhaps you ought to consider whether you know what the *&$% you are talking about

__________________
ShazaLhasa
My fabulous furry friends

ask Ur spouse [or any other adult: dentist, doctor, a nurse, etc] to FIRMLY hold their thumb
under Ur tongue using their fingers under Ur jaw firmly-enuf so that U cannot spit it out,
pull away, turn aside, etc.

IOW they Hold Ur jaw from below & lower-palate under Ur tongue so firmly that U cannot
escape, avoid, or resist. then come back, & assure all of us that it was PAINLESS.

mucus-membranes heal very quickly, but they are also very delicate & heavily enervated -
meaning LOTS OF NERVES & loads of small blood-vessels. If cut they bleed a lot; they bruise easily.
they are SENSITIVE areas.
Pyrenees are not "known" for being snapping crocodiles of any sort whatever.
BCs, Aussies, GSDs, BSDs of all 4 varieties, terrierrrists & their mimics [minPins, Chis, etc]
are all among the truly-notorious 'snappers' who can be almost nonstop biting maniacs as pups.
obviously, working-line herding breeds are particularly notorious; so are the truly-insane border-patrol BSD-Mals
& Dutchies who are so popular in bite-sports.

what U can get away with in a Pyr - a more-tolerant & less working-lines LGB than, say, an Anatolian or Kuvasz,
let alone the primitive Kangal or Ovtcharka-types - is not necessarily what U can get away with
in any of those gator-jawed snappers, who frequently bloody their handlers even before they are 3-MO,
by puncturing them with their needle milk-teeth.
after over 30-years working with dogs, i've seen the results of THAT SPECIFIC ADVICE many times over.

i have seen it in dogs that i met as 9-MO monsters who snapped every time anyone reached for a collar.
i've seen it AT THE VET'S - when a short-sighted, impatient, stoopid vet-tech DID THAT TO A NERVOUS PUP,
in his first vet-visit [idiot woman!], & that somewhat-shy Aussie became a confirmed biter by 6-MO.
he very nearly lost his life, & was luckily taken in by rescue when the owner gave him up to the city-shelter.

i have seen what i described: ducking, cringing, flinching, freezing, snapping, & full-on BITES -
as a direct consequence of grabbing jaws, tongues, & / or muzzles on a normal, mouthy puppy of many breeds.

for that precise reason, i very strongly advocate that no one use such methods to "teach a pup NOT to bite",
as they are far more-likely to teach that pup TO BITE with force, if not now later, as a teen or adult dog,
OR IF THEY DON'T BITE, to evade handling or avoid strangers who reach for them, resist exams,
panic when someone tries to treat an ear, etc.

i make no apologies; what U describe is a success with one dog, of a fairly tolerant breed - Giants are not
typically reactive as a group; & this cannot be broadly applied to 'any breed of dog', let alone to those breeds
which, like terrierrists, are extremely thin-skinned, highly reactive, & memorably snappy.

safety is my paramount concern: for the pup, for the family, their community, the vet, & so on.
the dog's very LIFE may be at stake; teaching a pup to trust human handling is an absolute imperative, IMO & IME.

dogs who cannot be safely handled, treated when hurt or ill, caught when running stray, etc, live short lives.
HANDLING is a mandatory life-skill. Teaching pups that handling is scary, uncomfortable or needlessly
long-drawn & confining, are all counter-productive tactics. Short, happy, co-operative sessions,
with frequent breaks & frequent small treats for compliance, are my strongly-advocated suggestion.

U of course are free to do anything U please with Ur pups or dogs.
the consequences are entirely outside anyone else's control. Good luck!

__________________
terry pride, APDT-Aus, apdt#1827, CVA, TDF
*wolves R wolves, dogs R dogs, + primates R us.*
tmp, sept-2007

Guess who was stupid enough to try it?


OOOUUUCH! Yes it hurts and it's still throbbing now.

as i said:
mucus-membranes are delicate, with loads of blood-vessels & LOTS of nerves.
the tongue, inner-lips, gums, inner-cheeks, throat, etc, are thin-skinned, moist, easily injured areas -
the body MONITORS them carefully, to protect the tissues from burning, cuts, infection, & other injuries.

all those nerves are in part, because of the very-dense blood-vessels thru-out the mucus membranes.
early notice that the area is being hurt lets the animal react immediately, before more damage is done.
it minimizes bleeding / burns: the animal STOPS whatever is causing pain, & the injury is not made worse.

it's also why a minor error by our dentist when we're in the chair gets a big reaction from the patient:
a little bump, a small poke, a cold draft, HURTS out of all proportion to the size of the injury.


I always try to be very conscious of the dog's feelings while handling, ESPECIALLY pups -
I don't frustrate a puppy by lengthy grooming, nor 10-minutes or more of restraint, etc.
I also avoid soap in eyes & ears when bathing, & i don't poke sensitive areas or pull hair! I try to be thoughtful.
it pays off enormously when the dog MUST be handled, groomed, treated for an injury, dosed with meds,
have a cut cleaned, & so on.

__________________
terry pride, APDT-Aus, apdt#1827, CVA, TDF
*wolves R wolves, dogs R dogs, + primates R us.*
tmp, sept-2007

hi mine is 13 weeks now had him since 7 im trying all the things screaming when he nips shutting him out , giving him toys etc, but worryingly now when i tell him to stop or get off the sofa he barks and bites ,like hes annoyed or frustrated ,this worrys me as hes a dalmatian and will get big ..is this normal puppy behaviour as his nips hurt ,he also bites my son although i watch him all the time ,he s just so quick ..how many walks should he be having a day ,is it down to exercise .really want to get on top of this before he gewts too big .