Hi There,

We have a lovely collie/lab cross (more collie than lab) 12 weeks who is as bright as a button and generally fairly easily trained and handled. Sometimes she snaps at us, and mostly we are able to understand why.

This evening, we were sitting on the sofa and she was misbehaving - jumping up, trying to get the remote - so we were both ignoring her. She jumped up and tried to bite my OH then went for my elbow. I said "NO" then lifted her and placed her back in the kitchen. Only left her there for a few mins and she wasn't whining. Went in and she had peed on the floor. Apparantly she has done that a couple of times today and she is more or less toilet trained and defintiely in the kitchen.

My OH says that he spends most of the day with her and seems she doesn't sleep that much?? Don't know?

Any ideas as to why the behaviour and tips for dealing with.

Thanks
Gavs

Personally I think the clue might be that she is with the OH most of the day and doesnt sleep that much. Some pups just dont know when to quit and almost have to have enforced rest. I think the problem may be that she is attention seeking, which is what hapened this evening that could be what the jumping up and trying to get the remote was about, and when you ignored her the nipping. Pups can be mouthy anyway, but collies I believe can be more nippy then some breeds, I think thats what they do to get the sheeps attention and move them about or one of the tactics. Pups do jump and nip and bite each other in the litter too its a from of play and instigating it. So at a guess I think this is what she is doing perhaps, especially as she has a lot of constant attention in the day, they can become over tired and cranky too and bad behaviour can start so that is a likely reason too.

At 12 weeks its not unusal to have a relapse in toilet training. Sometimes we are the culprits too, they seem to be doing well so get a bit lax on the reminding and re-inforcing it. I would go back to basics, putting her out regularly, establish a toilet cue word (if you havent done so already) You do this by using the toilet word when they begin to go, used enough and every time they associate the word with the deed so you can then use it as a toilet
cue word. Go back the praising and a treat when finished too to re-inforce its the right place.

I would step up her obdience training too, maybe even consider taking her to a training class. Pups usually benefit when they have a structure and routine.
Having access for most of the day to you OH is also perhaps not a good idea
because when it does come to having to be left it could cause anxiety problems as she may not learn to cope on her own

Personally I would have a routine for her walks and exercise, Do 2 or 3 training sessions with her a day even for 10/15 minutes a time, mixed with a bit of structures play like chasing a ball, retrieving it and sitting to have it thrown again is a way of training and learning impulse control, so is things like teaching them to sit then wait. Teaching drop and leave it is important too.
In this way she will be getting mental and well as physical exercise, and learning to focus and listen to you and do as asked. It also means she learns to work for things she gets. Inbetween these times, or some of them, she is giving a wind down activity on her bed in another room, like a Kong or safe chew, and then left to wind down and rest on her own.

If she jumps up and/or nips, fold your arms, turn your back and whilst doing it say off, stay turned away or even just walk away, and totally ignore until she is calmed and stayed that way for a further minute or two, then call her to you, ask her to sit then fuss, praise and even a treat. You need to do it as soon as she starts the behaviour not when she is fully into it and continuosly jumping up and down and nipping, it makes it harder to stop them otherwise.

If any time she starts again or wont calm down, then put her out leave her for 5 or 10 minutes, then let her out, but ignore her a little longer, and only when she has stayed calm then call her, and attention and a treat for sitting.

Would just add when you leave her for her rest periods, just calmly put her in the room with her chew and leave without saying anything, like wise when you return, let her out with no fuss, then after a minute or two and if she has remained calm then fuss her.

This way she should learn, calm behaviour gets rewards and attention seeking jumping and nipping gets her nothing. Some dogs get it all quickly others take many repetitions and consistency, but if you keep at it and do it right it should all work.

__________________

Have a think about it, why would a puppy want a remote control? It ain't likely to want to control what you all watch, it's just an object that seems to have value attached to it, nothing more.

As for the peeing, pups/dogs don't pee to spite us, I have a 15 week old pup here, she has the occasional accident, but is fairly good. I ignore the unwanted encourage the wanted behaviour, consistency and willingness to teach them is all it needs

Thanks guys,

I didn't think she was peeing to spite us, just thought it might be because she was overly tired/agitated! If I thought my dog had that level of cognitive ability I would be vv impressed.
I do think we need to step up the structure and step down the play a bit, so that was helpful to hear. And we are starting training classes next week as she gets her last jab tonight. Yipee - walkies! Which I think will also help as she is likely going stir crazy..
Anyone else with Collies or Collie crosses I would love to hear from. In terms of what Reba needs from us.

gavs

My last rescue oldie was a Lab x collie, her owners handed her in to be pts, and told the vets she was a stray. One of the receptionists recognised them and knew it was their dog

She was collected from the pound the first day she could be released, and I went to collect her, she was so tired, smelly and scared. God only knows what sort of life she'd had, she was very temperamental, very overweight and underexercised, and had an infected skin tag that the owners just hadn't bothered to have looked at. She had a good retirement with me for about 17 months, drove me up the wall at times, but she thoroughly deserved a break after all she'd been through.

Anyone else with Collies or Collie crosses I would love to hear from. In terms of what Reba needs from us.

Yes I've had collies and collie crosses for well over 30 years. At present I have three. I shall also have another 10 here this afternoon for training and another 10 here tomorrow, ages ranging from 12 weeks to 14 years.

I hate to tell you but many collie pups are on the go most of the time and don't seem to need much rest, they can be terrible chewers and take ages to toilet train (especially farm bred working sheepdogs).

Sleeping Lion and Sled Dog Hotel are already given you good advice and I'm pleased to hear you'll be taking the pup to a training class.

Stick with it. In no time at all you'll have a lovely and hopefully well behaved dog.

Hi gav you have a combination of in my opinion the 2 brightest breeds of dogs.
Mind games, searching for food, as simple as throwing your food out in the garden for pup to search and use their nose, put to laying out trails of food when on a walk and then allowing the pup to track for them, using kongs to feed and other interactive toys.
Collies love to chase and labs love to hold (things in their mouth) playing retreive games would be an ideal pastime.
I must just have been lucky all our WSD and BC toilet trained very easily. I do meet a few through my work that don't but this is more often due to the pup being stressed.
I would also make sure pup has a bit of time out from your OH each day to build a coping strategy to be on their own. Don't want to build up seperation issues for the future.
if your pup is submissive towards you, ie lies on its back, do not touch its belly, you will sap pups confidence, which will make it snappy and likely to pee inappropriately.

Thanks you all for your responses.

Jenny that's really interesting what you say about not stroking her belly. she does often roll over especially in the mornings or when she hasn't seen us for a bit and mostly I stroke her chest but sometimes her tummy. I hadn't known that there was a potential difficulty for her with that so good to know.

We do put some of her food in a Kong toy and she loves chasing it around, but maybe we need to do so more often.

She loves to chase and loves to hold on too so I am teaching her to "drop" but she doesn't yet do it that often. Again any other tips on this greatly appreciated.

I am going to post another thread about her vaccinations but bascially we had her 12 week set tonight and had her micro chipped - she didn't make a noise which I was v surprised by. But the vet said we still cannot take her out for a week, and I wondered what your thoughts were? would love to take her to the beach as she is really liking water

Gavs

i'd suggest reading the sticky about nipping pups & how to teach a soft-mouth.
please don't skim the posts use the LINKS, especially to read the articles, etc.

there are 2 FREE books on DogStarDaily website, 'Before U Get Ur Dog' & 'After U Get Ur Dog'.
i'd download both & read them cover to cover; they include excellent ways to teach a soft-mouth AKA bite-inhibition,
plus great socialization guidelines [meeting living creatures: humans, other dogs, livestock, other pets, etc].

avoiding over-excitement [wrestling, grab the dog, push the pup away, & so on] helps a lot.
so does avoiding frustration; HOLDING A PUP'S MOUTH CLOSED is a really bad idea: as soon as U let go,
odds are good that the pup will snap like a gator, intensely frustrated & very focused on their mouth...
precisely what we did not want, unfortunately.

if any guest persists in teasing or grabbing the pup, i'd either remove the pup from the room entirely, to a place
the visitor cannot enter [a closed crate in a locked bedroom, etc], or evict the visitor - it's just that serious.
having some dingbat harass a puppy by grabbing & wrestling & poking, "all good fun..."
only teaches a pup bad-manners & a deep suspicion of human-handling - the dog never knows when a person
will lose their mind & begin to assault her/him, so they are always on guard slightly.

smacking pup-noses or scruffing a pup only makes them avoid or worry about hands coming at them;
the VET or the GROOMER or the Vet-Tech will not thank-U for teaching a pup that hands mean bad things,
as the dog that pup becomes may decide to bite first & ask questions after, during vet-exams, ear-cleaning,
a vaccination, antibiotic-injection, & other needed handling around the dog's head or neck. We want dogs to feel
comfortable with human-hands & all sorts of handling: otoscopes, rectal-temps, mouth exams, eye-exams,
any sort of treatment or grooming issue... anything our hands do should be no cause for worry or fear.

SHORT time-outs of less than a minute, with an immediate opportunity to sin again, are good:
they must be short so the pup doesn't lose track of what caused the time-out, IMMEDIATE so the pup can make that link
[i bite = i am alone], & the opportunity to nip again means the pup gets repeated chances to make the connection:
'when i nip or grab someone, i am separated from the people. '

it may take 10 time-outs in less than 15-minutes for the penny to drop; the pup only has that one clue,
being removed from society, so it's not obvious to a puppy what SHE or HE did that results in shunning.
if the time-out is too long, the pup will begin to fuss - or simply forget how they got there, & become involved
in something new [probably raiding the trash for edibles, snacking on cat-stools, or swallowing ant-poison,
knowing most pups... ].

so i'd use time-outs very persistently: short, instantaneous, & then come right back out to join the folks.
over, & over, & over, & over...

__________________
terry pride, APDT-Aus, apdt#1827, CVA, TDF
*wolves R wolves, dogs R dogs, + primates R us.*
tmp, sept-2007

Yes I knew she would be submissive with you, pups doing the behaviours she is are always also submissive, sorry I meant dont touch her at all when she is submitting.

To get her to give things back if you mean she wont let go just stick a treat on her nose as she opens her mouth introduce the command you want to use.

If you mean she runs off with it, do lots of tugging with her (letting her win) so she shes bringing stuff back to you as worthwhile.

Regards use of the kong, get her to work for all her food, one way or another.

the week will soon be up and you will be able to get her out, although she may not be the bravest puppy in the world to start off with.