I posted in the wrong topic....

My friend has a dog, she's had him going on 2 years now. He's trained and obeys comands fairly well.
But when she got him, she was told he was no good around children at all and would not be sold to a family with children or who have children round on a regular basis, apparently he'd snapped at there kids on several occassions, but that's all the details they got. (he was just over 2 when she got him).
He used to be a nervous dog, but is reasonably alright now, he does hide when strangers first go in, but only for a minute, then he comes out for a fuss, but when he's out he's not nervous at all. Except when he see's a kid. he's ok with older, but little kids he seem's a bit funny. He won't go near them and gives a warning rumble at them. He wear's a muzzle when he's out anyway because he doesn't like little dogs either. If the dogs bigger, he's fine though.

She's found out she's pregnant, around 22weeks now. And she's hoping she can re train him around kids and if possible little dogs before the baby comes.
She rang some training places but they couldn't suggest anything as there obediance trainers.

Any tips on how to get him used to kids?
(She know's never to leave the baby alone with the dog)

I'd get your friend to see a behaviorist (qualified one) This is an issue that cannot be sorted through a forum (IMO) you can get loads of advice on here from getting a doll and getting the dog used to that, along with prams and pushchairs the smell of baby milk etc etc. However a behaviourist will be able to observe body language, reactions and the relationship between owner and dog.
When my grandson came along, we introduced the dog and baby under my control, put the baby on the floor and let the dog sniif him. Now 17 months on the dog and grandson play together and my grandson can LLW him. (all supervised of course) I must however state that my dog was well socialised as a pupster and has a friendly nature.

Post changed as I agree with getting pro help.

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Sun Tzu, Kita and Eiko

Have you read this sticky? Lots of info on finding and choosing a behaviourist: What to look for in a Trainer or Behaviourist

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Whilst I agree that she should see a behaviourist I also think your friend shouldn't worry too much. My worry would be that he may revert back once the constant stream of visitors comes..

My top tip for women who are pregnant and have a dog - don't worry. If you make too much of a deal of it, the dog will, if you don't make any the dog will only notice the change in hormones. Babies don't tend to do a lot anyway..

Don't get a doll - a doll neither smells or sounds like an actual baby. I mean we can smell it's not a real baby and we can hear the sounds of it - IMO a waste of money.

My dog is fearful of (he was socialised around them as a pup too), toddlers and little children - I mean think about it, they're tiny hands, feet and snot often running from their noses and drool from their mouths and the grabbing and the touching.. makes me cringe but although he hasn't displayed any snapping tendencies he will hide.

So when my sister brings my 1 year old neice around and my friends with their baby, I make sure he can hide if he wants to - no need to force him to stay in the same room. He can smell, lick and (nose) touch them if he wants (well if he's allowed - my sisters a germaphobe!) I keep an eye on it all and if the baby looks unhappy I tell Louie - thats enough now, lay down and vice versa, although you normally have to take the baby away as they can't understand just yet.. But I don't worry. I sit with a cup of tea and observe what is going on - I know my dog and I know when he is tense and I know when he isn't - what makes him happy and whats uncomfortable.

The last time my neice visited, she sat on his back whilst he was chewing a chew, his ears went back - to listen - but he stayed laid there, completely relaxed ..and continued chewing as if someone had merely touched him and left, he's been meeting her since they were both little (Louie is only 15 months) so as they've grown, they've gotten used to each other. He also visits Sadie's house where there is a 5 and 2 year old running around (humans) they have been taught to leave him be if he walks away and to only give short gentle fusses when he allows them.
Teaching respect for animals is the best thing IMO. Her dog doesn't need to like children - he needs children to respect him, then he should become less fearful - he may not interact with them but ignorance is bliss.. the snapping - isn't aggression it's fearful warning and if a dog is uncomfortable you can't blame him. I would say that the children he has encountered in the past have probably run straight for his face, tail, ears etc and cornered him to grab or fuss and he has probably given them a warning first but then found out the snapping worked better, but rather than understanding why or what caused it, they've said he's no good with children and got rid.

Think about it - how many people have walked up to a dog and it's growled and they've either ignored or smacked the dog for this behaviour? Loads and when they repeat it, the dog doesn't get used to it, it escalates because it cannot get away. Imagine if you were in a lift and I came over and started pulling your ears and tugging on your face and clothes.. you'd be annoyed and you'd tell me to leave you alone, right? Well a dog does this in a growl, but as it doesn't speak our language - we don't interpret a growl as - "oh he's being grumpy". So if I ignored your "Leave me alone" in the lift and carried on - you'd probably get so annoyed and escalate further - maybe just telling me without the manners or even lashing out (this is a long lift journey) The dog does this in either a second growl - but if he's tried that before and found that the snapping works better - then he may proceed to that and if it did work - then he thinks, oh I'll forget the growl. Just like you would forget the manners if I got into another lift on a second, third - several other times and you'd either avoid me or threaten me...

His humans who owned him before failed him, they didn't go about seeing why he did this, they didn't try to understand and if he's snapped several times at children this is because they either haven't learned to respect the dog or his owners have failed to see the warning signs.

A friend of mine on another forum has a JRT and a foster son. Her dog started exhibiting snapping when fingers approached - something she's never done before and it was without growling too. So my friend watched what she was like all day and caught her foster son tormenting the dog. Now the FS has under gone some respect training and re-learnt his manners, harmony is restored once again in the house

So my advice would be..

- Not to worry too much, babies don't do a lot and s/he'll be under most constant supervision for her/his 1st year anyway - either in a moses or cot or in arms.
- Allow the dog to have a place to go (when the baby starts toddling).
- Gate off areas where the baby will be able to be without the dog and vice versa. (again for when it's toddling)
- If the dog watches the child grow and both have clear boundaries and rules set, then she shouldn't have a problem.
- Observe her dog - learn his behaviour pattern... this will be key for when the toddler starts trying/interacting with the dog (if there has been no problems) just like your friend is a parent, she is also the leader of her dog.
- Take it at a steady pace, let the dog greet the baby in his own time. Some dogs rush over to see the new bundles - others don't. (so are called or have the baby pushed near them..IMO the worst thing you can do really, I'm not a fan of kids and I certainly wouldn't want one pushed on me for the sake of me having to hold it)

Of course I am not a professional and don't claim to be in anyway shape or form, I do urge your friend to seek advice from behaviourists and everyone is entitled to their opinion but this is some of the advice (I and others) have given to other pregnant women about their dogs and babies. of whom haven't had a problem with their dogs and children since.

I'm curious - how did she get the dog used to strangers? Could she not do the same with well behaved children (4-5) the above will cover her from birth to about 2 but then I assume at around that age the child will have learnt some respect and the dog will be used to the child as well as the child going out to nursery...

I agree with Granddad on the push chair, high chair and other baby things - I'd also introduce stair and baby gates now if she hasn't got them already.. that way the dog can't associate the arrival of the baby and not being allowed certain areas of the house with each other.

Can a syop merge these threads.

Re training a dog.

With stranger's, he just hid, so when ever a new person came in the house, she asked if they would leave the dog, until he is ready to come to them. He alway's had an escape route to his bedroom or outside. And eventually he came round, and as long as he has somewhere to run to or hide for a few minutes, he's fine. She also had the new people give him treats when he came for a fuss to show that strangers = reward. And eventually changed from treats to his fave toy, to a big fuss.
And outside, she had people walk past at a distance, and then gradually move closer. Again he was fine.
She does have gates up, 1 to partion off the kitchen and front room, that she uses when cooking, because he doesn't seem to think he needs to move for people sometimes and will just run straight through them.
And 1 at the bottom of the stairs to stop him getting upstairs because he struggles with the stairs.

She tried having a baby in the house last year, but when the baby cried he growled, barked and lunged towards her (she had the baby in her arms). Her friend was a little funny about it, because he is a quite a big dog, she worried that next time he might knock into her, and after wouldn't allow the dog around the baby.
She tried with an older baby, he was around 2 and was sat on the sofa playing with his truck and the dog stood growling, ears back, tail ridgid and would not take his eye's off him. He also get's a bit freaked around baby buggies, but he just barks at them.

The dog has bitten before, but to me the man was warned but still went for the dog. It was dark out and we were walking the dog, and there was a very drunk man walking towards us, so we moved to the opposite side of the road, and he did the same, so we moved back as did he. We stood in a drive way and waited for him to pass but when he got to us he stopped in front of us and started babbling something to us and put his hand up to the dog. My friend stood in front of him and told him to not touch the dog, but he barged past and went for the dog anyway. The dog was already growling and when he put his hand right in front of the dog, the dog snapped. There was no blood or anything. the police were called, but nothing came of it, because we both explained that he had been told not to approach the dog and just barged her out of the way.
And because of his behaviour towards little dogs, she decided to muzzle him.

She spoke to a bahaviourist today but she can't see him till next week, so fingers crossed he should be able to help.

Good that she's seeing a behaviourist - it's more serious than I originally thought by your details. Sounds like she took on a difficult dog - but that doesn't mean to say he can't become good I wish her all the luck.. and I forgot in my last post, Congratulations to her

Please keep us updated on what the behaviourist said

First things first - get the dog health checked. Any dog trainer/ behaviourist should suggest this before they come round and charge a fortune!!

Truthfully you should never put a child at risk HOWEVER if the dog has a good bond with the lady who is pregnant the dog may well be fine with her child.

Hopefully the behaviourist will help sort it but it may be an issue of muzzling the dog and taking it out for a walk perhaps during school run. Be careful with the muzzle and association with children. Put it on at other times. NOT a mikki muzzle a baskerville one!

Work the dog at a distance and gradually get closer. Sadly this is a very difficult situation.

To give you hope though two of my dogs were very aggressive and my 2 year old son is currently trying to ride one like a horse...so there is hope!

good luck to your friend and keep us posted.