I agree with that, also, they never learn their own normal gender behaviours & corresponding body language which can make for confusion to some other dogs who can't interpret their intentions, some of them just go barging into other dogs as if they were still pups, probably because they never learned their own matured gender behaviours, this leads to conlict in some cases where another dog is predisposed not to take crap from other dogs.

Can you link any science to that?

__________________
Operant symbols

+P = Positive Punishment
-P = Negative Punishment
+R Positive Reinforcer
-R Negative Reinforcer

try and leave the castration until he is older. New evidence suggests that dogs need the hormones to mature - if you do him now he'll be a pup a lot longer!! Try the chemical castration if you are desperate!!!

You need to find a new club. Socialisation at this age should be on lead and controlled! It is not for the instructor to grab your dog unless others are at risk she should teach you what to do. Which is not to allow your dog to jump over other dogs. What you have been doing is right - if dog misbehaves stick him on lead. What happens if he does it to a dog that isn't keen on other dogs, or a dog on lead?

I have 5 dogs out at a time and I would be furious if someones dog charged over and jumped on them when they were on lead. Thats 20 stone of dog - no matter how well behaved they wouldn't take kindly to it! Even off lead its unacceptable! Dogs should be allowed to have fun - but with you, they need to respect other dogs. Remember you should be the most important thing in your dogs life.

Sorry to rant - its not your fault but the trainer you go to who should be advising you the dogs (in trainer speak) should not be allowed to practice and rehearse the wrong behaviour - it just makes it stronger!

Go and have a look at a few other clubs without your dog and see if they have other methods and techniques that sound better to you.

Sorry just a though about collar grabbing.

All dogs should be content with you grabbing their collar as if you need to and they aren't used to it then you could end up being bitten!

When you play with your dog*, handle them, push them around, growl praise them EVERYTHING. Gradually build it up so your hands are a good thing.

*Please note if your dog is aggressive, toy possessive or hand shy - don't follow the above advice. with a shy dog gradually build it up. With a toy possessive dog try give and take games. If your dog is aggressive - go to a recommended trainer! I love feather dusters or even feathers for building up dogs confidence in being touched!

let's assume this is true, B-Z -
that MOST male-dogs who are neutered between 6-MO & 10-MO are damaged by bone & joint problems, or remain
air-headed, distractible, hopelessly-scatterbrained PUPPIES: retarded in their intellectual development,
not trainable except for the absolute minimum: poop & pee outside most of the time, SIT if distractions are low, etc.

if it were true, Why weren't the dogs of my childhood, & everyone else's dogs
from the 1960s onward, ALL afflicted with bad joints & bone-problems, & impossibly juvenile?

Pubertal desex done between 6-MO & 8 to 9-MO has been the standard since approx 1960.
millions upon millions of dogs & cats were desexed at that age; Where are the vet-cases of joint-ills
& bone abnormalities which should have flooded the veterinary offices?
Where are the impossible-to-teach, goofy, retarded dogs, made permanent puppies by the surgery?
IT'S BEEN FIFTY YEARS - if this had been true, we'd have seen it & stopped doing
neutering at 6 to 8-MO.

above & beyond that, Why aren't bitches similarly afflicted? Why don't FEMALES become idiots
when spayed at 6 to 8-MO? Why don't spayed-FEMALES develop bone & joint problems when spayed
at puberty? WHERE ARE THEIR 'scare stories'?

i regard this entire issue as a myth, & never encountered it in my life before arriving on PF-uk.
i refuse to believe that British or Scottish or Welsh dogs are SO DIFFERENT from USA or Canadian dogs,
that dogs in North America are just fine, & dogs in the UK are devastated by the same desex surgery,
done at the same ages - it is patently ridiculous.

the OP is of course, free to do as they please; if this were my dog, i'd desex before 9 to 10-MO.
Cheers!
- terry

__________________
terry pride, APDT-Aus, apdt#1827, CVA, TDF
*wolves R wolves, dogs R dogs, + primates R us.*
tmp, sept-2007

Yes I have noticed similar sentiments from other PF members...so I try to be respectful of other dogs and owners (i.e. getting him on lead when other dogs around, asking if we can meet their dogs on lead), sometimes this works to my advantage and they suggest a quick run with their dogs off lead - this calms him right down then we tag with the other dogs on lead for a while - I think this is helping with his manners with dogs. I also like to be VERY careful if other dog is older as my puppy could cause some serious damage to fragile joints of an older dog.

Regarding me being the most important thing to him...I'm really stuck with how to achieve this, he is dog mad. The trainers say to play tug in the park to be more fun than the other dog and take tasty treats, these approaches have no effect when another dog is around .


Thanks for all the replies so far

U don't start teaching the game In The Park, competing with other dogs; U teach it at home, when there's just
U & the dog, & the environs are under Ur control.

do a SEARCH on PF-uk for 'super-tug' Rob-BC-active taught it to his BC & has a couple of videos posted;
i've done detailed How-To-Teach posts several times, too. U teach it first by choosing a unique toy, which is for
this game ONLY - it's never left lying about for self-play, it's for interaction only with humans; Very Special.

if there are other people in the household, play WITH THE HUMANS - play monkey-in-the-middle, lots of fun,
ham it up, laugh & carry on - this is the best game ever! make the dog desperate to join in.
U can also do self-play, if U live alone - but act goofy, be utterly engrossed in this marvelous game.
2 to 3 days of playing while the poor dog watches, first puzzled & then longing to join in, usually sets the hook.
then invite the dog for a SHORT happy game - less than 5-minutes! - and put it away; just enuf to whet their appetite
for more. Put the toy in a special place impossible for the dog to get into & remove it; make a big deal
of putting it away, then make a fuss of getting it out.

after 5 to 10-days of high fun with this super-special toy at home, begin using it AT HOME to call the dog:
say their Sacred name, wave the toy, say nothing else... jump around, act thrilled! ... WAIT for the dog to come in.
then engage them in tug...

after 10-days, most dogs are ready to take it on the road; use it to call the dog in for fun WHEN DOGS ARE NOT
nearby at first; then let the dog run off again. Short, happy, then release to play & sniff.

within 2-weeks, the SIGHT of the super-tug toy should bring the dog barreling to U, barring extreme distractions.
don't try to compete with running deer, a pheasant or bunny, a bitch in heart, etc -
start low, & make distractions gradually more challenging. Call the dog when they're getting tired,
after they've been wrestling & running for 10-minutes or so with the same dog[s].
Don't forget to let the dog GO FREE again after tug; it shouldn't always segue into leash on & go home.

__________________
terry pride, APDT-Aus, apdt#1827, CVA, TDF
*wolves R wolves, dogs R dogs, + primates R us.*
tmp, sept-2007

I'd dump this trainer if I were you. First off why did she choose a nervous dog to interact with what she should have known was a boiserous dog? Of course the bitch was going to go on her back in a submissive pose. That's her way of saying "back off I don't want a fight". The fact that your dog ignored the language and jumped on her anyway is what the trainer should be dealing with. I have a similar problem with one of mine.

Also, why didn't she know that you had been to her classes for months? To ask you if he had had interaction with dogs tells me she hadn't a clue who you or your dog were.

Dominance is just a word which means nothing, really, when it comes to dogs. He didn't understand the language of the other dog; that does not make him dominant just ill mannered. I mean that in the nicest possible way; as I said, I have similar problems.

__________________
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Will always miss you, my little Joshie Woshie xx

If you want real love, buy a dog

If you wouldn't use it on a child, don't use it on a dog

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good Q - i suspect she doesn't track the dog-students in her classes, & hasn't any idea of their basic temp
or usual behavior. Not a good sign, IMO.
definitely!
yup - sadly, i think so, too.

or perhaps just over-excited in the moment, or oblivious of other dog's signals -
maybe no older pups or adult-dogs actually TOLD HIM, "hey, ya young hoyden!
settle down, that was rude, boy!..."
some pups, especially male-pups, need to be told IN BIG LETTERS by more than one individual, several times,
before it starts to sink in, & they heed other dogs social-signals, become more polite & are less intrusive.

ignorance is curable - I'd work on finding puppy-tolerant dogs who are BIGGER than young Master Rude,
& let them tell him off - not nastily, but firmly & if need be, a dozen times over a 2 or 3 day period.
after the helper-dog tells him off, give him a short time-out of a minute or less to consider his lesson;
then i'd turn him loose to re-offend, possibly. The short break also allows the other dog a relief from his full-on
style of interaction.

__________________
terry pride, APDT-Aus, apdt#1827, CVA, TDF
*wolves R wolves, dogs R dogs, + primates R us.*
tmp, sept-2007

First job, ditch the trainer, you'll be much better off in the long run

Second of all, it is just play behaviour, or so it sounds over the net, but is perhaps just a bit rude. Standing over another dog does not imply the dreaded 'dominance' that we all hear of. Standing over in play is just a pattern of behaviour, and most dogs that are playing happily will reciprocate these positions.

Rolling over can be a way of 'submitting', but that does not imply dominance from the other dog. One dog could not be having a good time and is using the posture as a way of saying "Okay, okay, okay, I don't want to be a part of this any more!". Your puppy may not read other dogs well.

Dominance is a concept in animal behaviour that has been around for a long time. In simple applications, some animals can be said to form dominance relationships, and dominance hierarchies, whereas others (canines) can not. But in reality, and as more people are figuring out, dominance is not a good descriptor of relationships for any animal, because it's too simple and does not take account of the complex motivations and cost-benefit underpinnings of many animal's behavioural patterns and decisions.

I would aim to get a qualified trainer's class, e.g. APDT, COAPE, APBC qualified trainer.

Maintain socialisation with confident and social-savvy dogs, teach a good recall and level of obedience, and control interactions using that obedience. Call him away from the other dog a lot, every 30 seconds for example. One exercise I like is keeping two dogs on long-leads, but letting them drag, then after 30 seconds or so of nice play, or less if it is getting intense, pick up the leads, separate them, get the dogs' attention with a treat or toy, praise them for giving you attention and offering a SIT, then saying 'Go Play' again.

You can check out BAT training by Grisha Stewart too, who does a lot with 'frustrated-greeters', as well as fearful dogs.
Behavior Adjustment Training (BAT) | Official site for BAT: dog-friendly training for reactivity (aggression, fear, frustration) by Grisha Stewart, MA