from the OP -
that is intended as a PUNISHER - it is a consequence for unwanted behavior.
it is intended to reduce the incidence of the unwanted behavior.


this is Hazel's observation - [i agree with it] -
BearCub - with whom i also agree -
Sara at Wagtime -
RottieFan -

this is what i asked for:
Twice - here's the second request:
i'm still waiting.

& BTW - moving a pup or kitten or cub or ___ neonate of whatever species, is not calming them,
or stopping bad behavior, or interrupting, or anything else - it's moving the baby from point-A to point-B.

You are tapped, nowhere on that list is me saying you should punish a dog by picking it up by the scruff???? Is there? No! So i will say this again and this time read it slowly and maybe three times as it doesn't seem to be going in....

I said it immobilised a puppy when been carried by the scruff, so my theory was it was a calming technique! A pup goes limp when been carried this way, it is not in pain fact


Who even said that dogs punished their pups? If you go back you will find this on the second page!

After that it was all about moving a puppy......

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The most affectionate creature in the world is a wet dog!

Regardless of whether this is natural/unnatural, stressful or painful to the pup, I don't see it as an effective training programme. By avoiding the incidents in the first place, doing exercises like I posted in my last post (the Kikopup video), you can teach your pup to control them selves around you, rather than having to find some way of dealing with the incident when it occurs.

To be honest, I don't how fruitful this is going to be. I don't what he told you, but I'm guessing that he is of the belief that a dog sees a human as part of its pack, and therefore you must demonstrate a leadership role. I don't agree with this, neither does the world of animal behaviour.

What have you been doing to stop the trouble? Tell us techniques specifically, just so we have a better idea what he is advising.

ewelsh again, the original poster.

I am not an expert on dogs I only love my pets and want the best for them all, so far I have struggled with the change in pack at home and tried to find someone who will help them all be happy.

I am listening to everything everyone has said. I understand there is very strong feelings on this matter which you all seem to know so much more about and are qualified in answering........ I do not have the answers to my dogs issues, I did not just let them get on with it or ignor them all. I could only see my dogs attacking each other and getting very stressed, which in turn I got stressed, which is why I have bought in a trainer.................. it seems he is giving me the incorrect methods to use. Short term it seems to be working however you point out that long term it will cause more problems which is the last thing I want or my dogs.

I will cancel the trainer and try and sort things out myself or seek advice somewhere else.


I hope you will all stop attacking each other or anyone else seeking adivce who is not qualified but is trying to do the best by their dogs as this to date, has been such a lovely forum to be involved with, one I felt I could seek advice.

I promise you my dogs puppy cat kitten and co are cared and loved for so very much, I am not a bad person or want to punish my dogs. So I do not want anyone one thinking that there is a puppy and dog being hurt deliberatley.

ewelsh

Aww, I'm really sorry you got caught up in the fallout.

I do hope you find a good trainer to help you with your gang though. It does sound as though some of the advice given would be a temporary 'fix' and you will be better finding more permanent help that you and the forum will be happy with.

It's so good to have good people here who do have the dogs' best interests at heart and do know what they are talking about, but I know it can seem overwhelming sometimes.

Hopefully though their advice will have you saved you some heartache further down the line.

I dont think anyone thinks for one minute that your not a caring dog owner, personally speaking for myself I was just trying to say be very careful thats all. Especially with pups who are undergoing stages of mental and emotional developement, and especially if going through a fear period you do have to be careful how they and situations are handled. Im sure everyone else too is probably just trying to voice concerns that whilst things may seem to work and work very quickly at the time and for awhile after maybe, certain methods may not last and can cause other problems.

There was a post on here not so long ago (this is just an example btw) where someone thought they were doing the right thing using one of those spray can type pet correctors that make a loud hissing sound on a young dog. It did stop the young dog barking and lunging at other dogs granted, but the dog then turned into a nervous wreck. So everyone is just saying be careful. A lot of those other posters especially L4L have tons more experience then I have, and has seen the damage that using such methods can cause further down the line.As a trainer of years experience she has probably had to countless times try and rectify the damage. Of course people employ trainers and put their faith in them especially when the methods "instantly" seem to work. All people are saying is things are not always what they seem thats all. So please dont feel that people are getting at you personally. I think most was in exhasperation (sp) at the trainer and his methods.

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very much so. No-one thinks the OP is uncaring or does not want the best-possible outcome,
not just for the puppy but for her other dogs & her family, too - it's very upsetting when our pets become
the center of family-discord instead of a mutual joy, & a shared pleasure.

...someone [on PF-uk] thought they were doing the right thing [by] using one of those spraycan-type pet correctors
that make a loud hissing sound on [their] young dog. It did stop the young dog barking & lunging at other dogs,
granted, but the dog then turned into a nervous wreck. So everyone is just saying be careful. [/quote]
definitely! un-intended side-effects can be really upsetting, & it's possible for the after-effects to be
even worse than the original problem, which is intensely frustrating & can be very expensive [in money & time]
to fix, later.
definitely agree - for myself, i find it shocking that someone would be making these suggestions today,
with all of the knowledge we have now compared to say, 1945 - 1950, when such methods were standard.

Koehler, Woodhouse, & Captain Haggerty would all have recognized & supported these suggestions -
but no current humane-trainer would join their chorus, & they'd be shocked at the prospect. It's no different than
suggesting to a small-time farmer that they beat their livestock before slaughter, to 'tenderize' the meat -
that was a common belief in the past [the 1500s, i think], BUT we rightly regard it today as cruelty.
it's a historical fact, like a dunking-stool to 'test' witches, but no-one would advocate it nowadays.


Pups are as ignorant as any toddler, but they're also emotionally-sensitive, & while we can get frustrated
& hugely irritated, we never want to make a bad situation worse by leaving a pup [or a dog] with a powerful
emotional memory that will linger & create future-problems; we want learning to be memorable,
but with happy associations, not with scary or worrying feelings attached to the lessons.