OK. Let's try again. Wow this really is a nest of vipers. The article that was quoted on the original thread was written in the early 90's. I make no apology for it. That was what was being taught both in practical courses and at University level. As soon as I started learning a new approach, I started using it and quite a few years ahead of most of the trainers I knew.

I've asked the dog club uk people to remove the old offending article and they have done so.

Just so you known that I'm not out there abusing any more dogs (never mind that most of my career was in animal welfare and rescue) by telling their owners to let them walk through the door first - god forbid that could be very dangerous. And of course lets not forget that the non profit I established to help homeless people with pets as well as setting up the Dogs' Trust behaviour programme were clearly designed as an evil cover for my desire to hurt dogs and their owners.

I'm retired. I retired nearly 7 years ago. I run a humane education programme in schools in a developing country and volunteer for the local humane society. Given that most dogs in the world don't even receive fresh water or adequate food daily, I must do my pennance by never ever giving anyone any advice on operant conditioning or clicker training (most dogs where I live now are trained through beating) as I might, in several years down the road, find that my old advice is somewhere on the internet, causing people to further abuse their animals.

Honestly folks, do you really think that ripping apart a retired dog trainer, who really did study hard, spend most of her time in animal welfare, underwent ongoing professional training right til the very end and who happily changed her methods (that said, I never did use choke chains, pinch collars and was an active campaigner against shock collars) helps most of the dogs in the world?

Hugs and love to all of you who are doing great things for dogs and I hope that you find that your own mistakes are as quickly forgiven as those you are so quick to point out that others make.

It is ironic that many of you claim to be positive and humane trainers, but are incapable of applying those concepts to your fellow human beings. I studied hard, cared deeply about the people and dogs I worked with and did my best within the context of what was known and available at the time. All I can say is if you cannot accept that someone did their very best and changed their views as time changed, you really are extremely harsh and maybe not as positive and humane as you'd like to claim. The fact that I agree with and support the methods of training that you all are advocating now is clearly not enough, so if I'm ever in England again, I'll get in touch so that you can hold a public lynching - as that seems to be the only thing that will satisfy some of you. So, sad to see that the dog training community has come to this and instead of seeing the positive, encouraging it and supporting each other, some would choose to spend their time trying to hurt others.

Hurrah! Most excellent, well-done, You!

taking outdated or wrong-info off the 'net is a constant chore, & preventing such info from being taken
as Gospel by beginning-learners is IMO, an extremely important part of that job. Thanks so much
for asking the site-owners to delete it, & i'm very glad they did.
- there was no DATE on the article, Colette - how were we to know its age?
i thought that it was 'current', as i'm sure many did - since the PAGE had a recent copyright.

- when we know better, we do better; no-one is denying that people can learn & then do better.
None of us could possibly know that this was a 'period piece' from 2-decades ago.
all of us, i'm sure, know MANY trainers who were formerly-traditional or frankly even harshly-aversive,
but have changed their tools & methods markedly & now both teach & use reward-based methods.
No trainer that i know goes about damning & blasting them for what they did THEN, in the 70s, 80s, or 90s.
So i'd disagree that forgiveness is impossible - we just didn't know that U had moved on, long ago.
How could we?

there are thousands, possibly hundreds of thousands, of crossover trainers in the USA alone.
world-wide, who knows how many? That they DID learn better, & are now doing things differently,
is wonderful - i think they themselves feel worse about the dogs & clients from their pasts, than others do.

i know for myself, tho my mentor was FOR HER TIME a very fair, kind trainer, i am truly sorry that my dog
was trained with a choke-collar... & if i had him today, what i could make of him would be incredible, as he was
a wonderful dog; but i was 10-YO at the time. Over 30-years later, bemoaning what i did at the instruction
of my then-coach is silly. I can vow to give much-better instruction to everyone i meet now, but i cannot
change the past; that was then.
i'd say that's hyperbole. i don't think anyone has a new rope knotted, & a gallows built.
that's definitely not true - I have fellow-trainers that i've never met in the flesh, yet they're
helpful, very supportive, & a font of information when i need a reference, a text, or suggestions for a client,
etc - Anne Rogers AKA tripod, Caroline-H, Cori, FunForFido, & a number of other PF-uk trainers
have provided HUGE helpings of solid, useful, safe information here, to APOs & fellow-trainers alike.

heck, there are a number of gifted amateurs on PF-uk who are terrific trainers, tho they only train
their own dogs - & they, too, are quick to volunteer helpful info & suggestions to anyone who asks.

Please hang-around for a bit? i think U'll find we aren't such monsters as we seemed.

__________________
terry pride, APDT-Aus, apdt#1827, CVA, TDF
*wolves R wolves, dogs R dogs, + primates R us.*
tmp, sept-2007

On the whole people on Petforums aren't a 'nest of vipers', it's mostly just the one snake. I'll leave you to work out which one.