Lots of breeders pride themselves in breeding for temperament. However, we all know that temperament is modified by experience. So - can dogs be born bad? Or is it always their upbringing?

__________________
Check out my English Shepherds
http://www.edenvillage.co.uk

Breed for a useful dog and you often get a beautiful, useful dog... breed only for a beautiful dog and you are on your own in the useful department.

Good question. Leaving aside medical issues and early life experience, 2 dogs from the same litter will still have different personalities even if they are brought up in the same home. I want to say that no dog is born bad, but I knew a family of lovely people with 3 teenage sons. They ran a pet food business, lived in a nice house and got on well with everyone. 2 of the sons were lovely boys. The third was always in trouble, stole cars, burgled houses, and was surly and rude. I always wondered why that was. I don't know the answer.

I think its both. Tempermant issues can come down lines, but of course can come from experiences too!

Hmm, Nature versus nuture argument, lol!

Both can count for a lot in my opinion.

__________________
Fere libenter hormines id quod volunt credunt

I wouldnt say pups can be born Bad as such, but I believe its pretty well documented that genetic tendencies as regards to temperament can be passed on, as in nervous or fearful for example. which can then be exacerbated by poor early socialisation and habituation and handling. A lot of pups and dogs who are labelled as outright aggressive, is from fear aggression due to nervousness and uncertainty.

So Actually Bad No, Possibly flawed yes.

__________________

I believe it is in the genes and one in a while you will get the 'black sheep' appearing just as you do in the human race.

Most "born bad" dogs are probably just unfortunate. I am sure my guy could drive many crazy, he takes real commitment.

People love to project problems, so for instance they say "stubborn dog does not listen" rather than say "my dog finds me boring". Or "that dog is a disobedient dog" rather than, "I never bothered to socialise, exercise and learn to train my dog properly".

What is the case, is that some dogs need extra work, often socialisation, or habituation to stressors. Where poor puppy mill type breeders let the eventual owners down, is in the early socialisation experiences. Whilst they may not have carefully selected to "better the breed", those pups would undoubtedly do better with a good breeder's care.

Finally, if you accept "genetics" then the logic that follows is that some breeds are "born bad" because of tendencies, yet it's generally accepted that "demon breeds" usually have problems due to poor owners & treatment, rather than irrevocable breed flaws.

__________________
For eager & reliable recall, be fun for the dog to come back to! Then often send them off right away to do what they wanted!
DT&B - Glossary of acronyms & jargon terms.
Encouraging good behaviours, whilst consistently avoiding practise of bad alternatives leads to extinction of the bad. So if dog sits 6/10 times it doesn't sit 4/10 times, encouraging with the right rewards (positively-reinforcing) enough for 9/10 times means it now fails to sit only 1/10 times, sit 10/10 means...

I had two litter mates. They were very different dogs. One was clever, pushed the boundaries, had a bad experience at the vets and became fearful and growly. He then refused cuddles or even being 'loomed' over. He occasionally took himself off to be alone. The other is cuddly, wants to be with us 100% of the time, not terribly bright, soppy. The dam was physically and character-wise exactly like this one. Both had the same upbringing.

The current two are very different to one another. Zak is not good with strangers, is obsessed with birds, is cheeky, very clever, needy, frankly naughty and easily frustrated. Bear is none of those. He's a much easier dog. Again, same upbringing. Zak is 'flawed' and needs more attention/supervision. The OH says anyone else would have sent him to a rescue by now. He is hard work. Bear would be fine with anyone.

Point being that I think a dog is born with a set of characteristics that can be muted but never eradicated. I do not understand how you can possibly breed for temperament when puppies can be so different. Strikes me as a stupid thing to say when you cannot guarantee how a dog will turn out. You can try, by using two lovely chilled out dogs, but there is no way you can 100%, hand on heart, tell a buyer that the puppy will be like the parents. You might get 6 out of ten that are calm, chill and 4 totally different.

__________________

Transplanted Geordie
RIP Jake, my best dog. 10.8.10
RIP Boomerang, beautiful horse. 27.5.08

i've met very few 'born bad' dogs - maybe 2 or 3 in my lifetime.
1 i think was genuinely psychotic - he bit over a dozen people in his life, & had a weird habit of following U from room
to room, lying at a distance, & staring at U... steadily, by the hour.
i didn't trust him as far as i can spit - which is very-short, indeed.

FEAR or timidity or anxiety is a spectrum, just like boldness or confidence.
unfortunately, fearfulness AKA shyness is extremely heritable - no dog who shows timidity,
male or female, should ever be bred - no matter how glorious their pedigree, how gorgeous,
they are not fit parents for future progeny; they should be desexed & placed in pet or working homes,
& the earliest possible intervention to help that puppy cope should be provided.

calmatives, good careful socialization & habituation can do much to help a fearful dog;
they will never be bold, they will not be sires or dams [we hope], but they can become more happy
in their own skins, & have a good life.

agility, believe it or not, even in the backyard, can help a spooky dog develop some confidence;
they don't have to compete, just challenge the obstacles safely & have some fun doing it.

there is also the interaction of nature & nurture: a shy pup who goes to an experienced dog-owner
can become a better dog than a normal pup who goes to a novice owner, who neglects to socialize,
is sloppy about habituating the pup, & leaves the young dog solo & bored for hours on end, then returns
erratically to make a fuss over them, now & then, when it's convenient or on a whim.

it is very sad indeed to see a normal, happy, outgoing pup be stunted by thoughtless care -
a pup who could have been an exceptional dog becomes a semi-trained, bored couch-potato,
or at 6-MO is relegated to the backyard because s/he barks, chews destructively, or when s/he
DOES get a rare bit of attention or freedom, cannot be recalled or mind their manners, untaught as they are.
such dogs are often ignorant, untrained, underexercised & simply fed and cared for - not enjoyed,
& certainly not nurtured.

__________________
terry pride, APDT-Aus, apdt#1827, CVA, TDF
*wolves R wolves, dogs R dogs, + primates R us.*
tmp, sept-2007

Personalities would not be expected to be carbon copy. In a litter there's a brightest, the most precocious and so on. But the "bad experience at the vets" sounds like nurture rather than nature.

Some dogs are prone to health issues, which could indeed cause owner directed aggression, or seemingly "unpredictable" problem behaviours. That's not "born bad" though.

If you have a very playfull exciteable pup, who's prone to nipping then you need to be extra vigilant about all contact with strangers. That's very different from the "born bad" label of the "no good" dog.

Finally to see you can breed for temperament in general & long run; simply go and spectate to a local dog sport event like Agility. Look at all the ABC's in line up to compete, then afterwards go see the classes dominated by BC's. The difference is totally striking and it's the result of ruthless selection for "work ethic and drive".
Actually I noticed increased confidence after introduction to sheep, it showed in better performance at Agility class next day, when the worry was that he might be less concentrated.

__________________
For eager & reliable recall, be fun for the dog to come back to! Then often send them off right away to do what they wanted!
DT&B - Glossary of acronyms & jargon terms.
Encouraging good behaviours, whilst consistently avoiding practise of bad alternatives leads to extinction of the bad. So if dog sits 6/10 times it doesn't sit 4/10 times, encouraging with the right rewards (positively-reinforcing) enough for 9/10 times means it now fails to sit only 1/10 times, sit 10/10 means...