Thanks for the advice

Just because I am a fan of CM, doesn't mean I sign up to all his methods. You are absolutely right, in that being the boss does not Solve all problems. But I do believe its a big step in the right direction. Training is also important , as is behaviour modification.

Unfortunately in my case I have had to accept my dogs limitations. I have worked with a behaviourist and tried behaviour modification, using positive rewards. My case is slightly different because I have 2 dogs who have the same insecurities and problems. Their behaviour is very much ingrained due to their history and where they came from.

I'm sure I could change it if I really set my mind to it. But it would need a constant stream of visitors to build up their confidence and change their behaviour.


Thanks though x

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Absolutely, it's difficult work with one dog never mind 3 like you.

Personally, I think people's mindsets change when they think they are 'the boss', sometimes for the better, sometimes for the worse. When it happens for the better, people attribute many vague theories to why it seems to be working, when in reality it may be something very small that's changed and helped, and not really related to simply your 'energy' changing.

Dogs don't need bosses, IMO...I think that's an immediate back step in the relationship. They need aid in adapting to the human world. When a problem arises, like aggression, 'correcting' the dog for bad behaviour is the exact opposite that people should be doing.

Dogs see 'safe' and 'dangerous'. If someone corrects (a 'touch' a la Cesar Millan, an Alpha roll, a body block) undesirable behaviour physically, the dog learns that it is dangerous to do that behaviour in your presence, and many dogs will stop at the time because of that reason. And so I think it's very off-the-plot to say that the dog has stopped the behaviour because they now see you as a 'leader'. Dogs learn by association- safe and dangerous, a lot of the time- not ranking systems.

I respect your views. Just don't necessarily agree. But then life would be very boring if we were all the same

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Do you own a DINOS (dogs in need of space). To find out more and to find a walking buddy follow the link!


www.dogsinneedofspace.co.uk

Sure would be. People are entitled to their views, Cesar's entitled to his views, but it annoys me that those views misapply established theories of dominance and hierarchies, as well as refuse to realise that animal behaviourists say something completely different and ignore the science behind things like learning theory and social relationships.

But that's because I study this stuff a lot. It's just frustrating to read/see/hear all the things I learn from respected, experienced professionals completely ignored by people who have latched on to a very interesting, but nevertheless completely unsupported collection of ideas and theories.

yes i think of it as the Pretzel Effect:
take a plain ring, hold it vertically, twist one side toward & the other away, et voila...
a traditional soft-pretzel, unrecognizable as the former 'ring'.

some warping, twisting, s_t_r_e_t_c_hing... and it doesn't even resemble the original. Drabbit.

meantime these unsupported claims are hanging out in space like a Rube Goldberg mobile -
all spinning & sparkly... & as eye-catching as a hammered-silver spinner on a fish-hook.
they draw attention from plain, simple explanations: Dogs Do What Works; they repeat rewarding behavior.

so if U want more of it? MANAGE to make that easy; make alternatives harder; & reward it.

U don't want it? MANAGE to make it impossible or bloody difficult; eliminate the reward[s] for it.

__________________
terry pride, APDT-Aus, apdt#1827, CVA, TDF
*wolves R wolves, dogs R dogs, + primates R us.*
tmp, sept-2007

You said in your earlier post that dogs don't need a boss but need tO adapt to the modern world...

If you replaced the word "boss" with providing leadership. Would that make a difference. Trouble is people are so sensitive to the word boss, pack leader, dominance. I would use all these words to describe my relationship with my dogs.

I am the one who decides where they will sleep, when they walk, when they go out, what they eat, when they go to the vets, when they are bathed etc etc.

This Is called leadership and is vital in being a responsible owner. It's not a democracy or team work. It is about me being in control. So in my mind this makes me pack leader/the dominant one/the boss. What ever word you want to use.

IMO people who hate CM are so concerned about staying away from his use if terminology that they lose sight of the bigger picture.

Any responsible owner should be in control of their dog, and to me, this makes YOU the boss.

Do I use harsh methods or feel the need to dominate? NO.

But I am their leader and I will always step up to the plate and provide for them.

Probably no different to you. Just the choice of word ..

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Do you own a DINOS (dogs in need of space). To find out more and to find a walking buddy follow the link!


www.dogsinneedofspace.co.uk

I agree partly, however, I would say this is purely human interpretation and not how dogs perceive the world. In a metaphorical sense, you are a leader to your dogs yes, but I would argue that this is neither how dogs see people (it's too vague and anthropomorphic) nor a way to fix behaviour problems (again, too vague).

People who don't like Cesar understand the bigger picture perfectly well- we train, rehabilitate and rescue dogs just the same way.

I'm concerned about staying away from the use of this terminology because for the most part, is sets relationships off on the wrong foot. If you say that someone's dog is in control and you need to take the lead, this immediately creates a more hostile environment in many situations.

Boss, leadership...these can be used if you want. However, 'dominance' should not be. It is a term used in animal behaviour to describe a specific situation and relationship, relationships that do not come about between canids because they are family orientated. It's a very interesting concept, and so it irks me when it is severely misapplied in dog training and behaviour.

Trouble is that we dont know exactly how they perceive us, hence why it's debatable.

__________________


Do you own a DINOS (dogs in need of space). To find out more and to find a walking buddy follow the link!


www.dogsinneedofspace.co.uk

Which is the crux of animal behaviour! However, there are other ways and research designs that we can make very well-educated interpretations of behaviour from, e.g. how dogs learn. Furthermore, body language is a huge thing.

I was reading an article in New Scientist the other day, about 'mind-reading' and the new advances towards reading people's minds and inner thoughts. Pretty scary stuff for humans...but it would great for animals!!