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Dog Training and Behaviour Discuss dog training and behaviour problems in this section. Are you having problems with your dogs behaviour? Then submit your problems and get help from other members. Do you have some excellent dog training advice? then submit your details here to help others.

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Old 22-05-2011, 04:17 PM
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Help with Border Collie aggression

Hi all,

Dont usually post in the dog section of the forum as this is my grandparents border collie but just thought someone on here might be able to help.

They have male border collie who will be 3 years old next week. He hasnt been neutered because they intended to use him for stud and keep one of the pups from the litter but my nans took ill so they dont think they could cope with another.

Basically, over the past month or so my nans condition which makes her struggle to walk has got much worse, so now she has to have a zimoframe which Jed hates. He definitely knows somethings wrong.

When we first got him he was quite boistrous and has come from working parents, his dad being 2008 english national winner. Anyway, he very much likes his own way, and if picks anything up that he shouldnt and you try and get it off him he will growl. This seems to have got alot worse since my nan took ill over the past month and hes now growling at people for no reasons at all.

An example, he came for a cuddle from me earlier on today, but as soon as I moved he started snarling at me

Could this have been made worse by my nan becoming more ill over the past month? does anyone have any ideas how we can stop this.

Needless to say I am ringing the vets tomorrow morning to get him neutered and hopefully this will help somewhat.

Sorrry for the long post
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Old 22-05-2011, 04:21 PM
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Re: Help with Border Collie aggression

What sort of daily exercise/training/stimulation is he getting?

Neutering probably wont do anything to alter his behaviour now.
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Old 22-05-2011, 04:28 PM
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Re: Help with Border Collie aggression

He is walked twice daily for an hour each time. Only 15 mins of this walk is on a lead and the rest is where he is running about after his ball etc.

He has a huge garden at home also where he can run around, granda plays with im all day long in the house and when grandas outside in his shed Jed's out there with him too carrying his tools!

Its only the past month or so where hes started snapping at people for no reason.
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Old 22-05-2011, 06:33 PM
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Re: Help with Border Collie aggression

I would have a word with the vet first before you get him castrated and see if this will help with the snapping and snarling. As the hormones take a while to settle down anyway. But this could be the answer and you want to give the dog every chance. good luck
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Old 22-05-2011, 06:46 PM
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Re: Help with Border Collie aggression

My first port of call would be the dog having a thorough check over at the vets, making sure that he isn't in any pain.
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Old 22-05-2011, 09:21 PM
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Re: Help with Border Collie aggression

Quote:
Originally Posted by samhx View Post
Anyway, he very much likes his own way, and if picks anything up that he shouldnt and you try and get it off him he will growl. This seems to have got alot worse since my nan took ill over the past month and hes now growling at people for no reasons at all
If you haven't trained him to give up items, then the resistance is "normal".
The dog is growling for a reason, it's just you haven't discovered it yet

Agree with health check up first for sudden behavioural change, if you look at the paper, you'll see neutering may well not help - The Effects of Spaying and Neutering on Canine Behavior | Association of Animal Behavior Professionals. With Collies being prone to fear issues, neutering may be counter productive.

Has anyone actually trained him and worked him in some productive way? There's play and play, fetch isn't really engaging an ISDS Collie's brain much at all, and other games whilst good ought to have some balance, practising impulse control, patience and other WSD characteristics. These dogs are very exciteable, huge stamina and not by any means easy pet dogs!
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Last edited by RobD-BCactive; 10-06-2011 at 12:30 PM.. Reason: Updated link to direct one to survey
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Old 23-05-2011, 05:53 AM
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Re: Help with Border Collie aggression

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobD-BCactive View Post
If you haven't trained him to give up items, then the resistance is "normal".
The dog is growling for a reason, it's just you haven't discovered it yet

Agree with health check up first for sudden behavioural change, if you look at the paper referenced by this site at bottom of the page, you'll see neutering may well not help - Stan Rawlinson explains the dangers of Spaying and Castration (Neutering) young Dogs. With Collies being prone to fear issues, neutering may be counter productive.

Has anyone actually trained him and worked him in some productive way? There's play and play, fetch isn't really engaging an ISDS Collie's brain much at all, and other games whilst good ought to have some balance, practising impulse control, patience and other WSD characteristics. These dogs are very exciteable, huge stamina and not by any means easy pet dogs!
Thanks alot for your reply. To be honest, he probably started picking things up around the house which he knows hes not allowed to for quite some time, and if anyone went anywhere near him to try and retrieve it he would growl so hes not been trained to give up these items. Hes outside all day with my granda and its when he comes back in the house at night time when he starts. Granda seemed to think it was for attention but I assume hes just bored because hes been walking, outside all day and when he comes in the house at night hes quiet.

The problems started quite a long time ago and grandas just ignored the fact and obsiously not its got to the point where its got to stop before someone gets a nasty bite.

What kind of activities are you talking about to stimulate his mind? A few months ago we considered ringing the breeder to see about having some training classes on the farm with him that would possibly help? There seems to be a well known border collie trainer and we considered about calling her.

Im just worried that because hes had his own way for soo long can we even change his ways

Should I call the vet this morning to discuss being castrated or is there no point? I have read the thread and it seems to me hes too old anyway being nearly 36 months!
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Old 23-05-2011, 07:43 AM
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Re: Help with Border Collie aggression

Quote:
Originally Posted by samhx View Post
Thanks alot for your reply. To be honest, he probably started picking things up around the house which he knows hes not allowed to for quite some time, and if anyone went anywhere near him to try and retrieve it he would growl so hes not been trained to give up these items.
This is the kind of thing you have to be wary of YouTube - Aggression in Dogs: Resource Guarding avoid conflict or it may escalate from growling and be harder to improve. You are right to be worried.

Because RG is quite dangerous for human's and can result in very nasty bites, it's quite hard to find good examples for you to follow, it's an issue that tends to get referred to a qualified behaviourist.

tripod has articles on her website which may help - guarding | Search Results | Pet Central's Pawsitive Dawgs Blog!

Here's a discussion featuring the Dunbar's 3.02 - Resource Guarding | Dog Star Daily. I agree that it's quite easy to accidentally train RG-ing, I'm having to work on this myself with my BC, because he values items like tennis balls higher than bones

The principal is to teach the dog, that good things happen when it gives up the item. So exchange higher value items, with a BC try offering a treat and play with a tennis ball for example. With dog toy items, reward giving the item up, by offering it back after reward with treat or praise.

Quote:
That kind of activities are you talking about to stimulate his mind? A few months ago we considered ringing the breeder to see about having some training classes on the farm with him that would possibly help? There seems to be a well known border collie trainer and we considered about calling her.

Im just worried that because hes had his own way for soo long can we even change his ways

Should I call the vet this morning to discuss being castrated or is there no point? I have read the thread and it seems to me hes too old anyway being nearly 36 months!
Well hanging out with your Grandpa does mean he's likely not completly bored. Most ppl need to organise activities for their BC's, so they can switch off and rest, settling whilst the owners get on with life.

Definitely dogs can change their ways and especially BC's remain very trainable till later in life, so have faith, doing the right things will improve the dog's house manners and make him safer.

Tell the vet, that you've observed a change in personality and more aggressiveness and would like him health checked, which was advised by some pro-Trainer/Behaviourist already in the thread (snarling after coming for cuddle is particularly concerning, more than a "I want this" growl on items the dog has pinched. If you have pet insurance you may qualify referral to a good behaviourist (see Sticky on qualifications and sorting good from bad behaviourists).

Vets do like neutering, because it's a service they can offer which may help. But rather than decide the solution in advance, regard it like a detective story with leads, possibilities to eliminate, gradually narrow in until you understand "What done it!"

There's a thread on Training and activities as well as one talking about Recreational Sheepdogs, assuming your dog passes it's health check, and does not need treatment or specialised referral to veterininary behaviorist, who is qualified to work with combined medication & behavioural approach.
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Last edited by RobD-BCactive; 23-05-2011 at 07:50 AM..
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Old 23-05-2011, 08:00 AM
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Re: Help with Border Collie aggression

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobD-BCactive View Post
This is the kind of thing you have to be wary of YouTube - Aggression in Dogs: Resource Guarding avoid conflict or it may escalate from growling and be harder to improve. You are right to be worried.

Because RG is quite dangerous for human's and can result in very nasty bites, it's quite hard to find good examples for you to follow, it's an issue that tends to get referred to a qualified behaviourist.

tripod has articles on her website which may help - guarding | Search Results | Pet Central's Pawsitive Dawgs Blog!

Here's a discussion featuring the Dunbar's 3.02 - Resource Guarding | Dog Star Daily. I agree that it's quite easy to accidentally train RG-ing, I'm having to work on this myself with my BC, because he values items like tennis balls higher than bones

The principal is to teach the dog, that good things happen when it gives up the item. So exchange higher value items, with a BC try offering a treat and play with a tennis ball for example. With dog toy items, reward giving the item up, by offering it back after reward with treat or praise.


Well hanging out with your Grandpa does mean he's likely not completly bored. Most ppl need to organise activities for their BC's, so they can switch off and rest, settling whilst the owners get on with life.

Definitely dogs can change their ways and especially BC's remain very trainable till later in life, so have faith, doing the right things will improve the dog's house manners and make him safer.

Tell the vet, that you've observed a change in personality and more aggressiveness and would like him health checked, which was advised by some pro-Trainer/Behaviourist already in the thread (snarling after coming for cuddle is particularly concerning, more than a "I want this" growl on items the dog has pinched. If you have pet insurance you may qualify referral to a good behaviourist (see Sticky on qualifications and sorting good from bad behaviourists).

Vets do like neutering, because it's a service they can offer which may help. But rather than decide the solution in advance, regard it like a detective story with leads, possibilities to eliminate, gradually narrow in until you understand "What done it!"

There's a thread on Training and activities as well as one talking about Recreational Sheepdogs, assuming your dog passes it's health check, and does not need treatment or specialised referral to veterininary behaviorist, who is qualified to work with combined medication & behavioural approach.
Hi, I called the vet this morning just for a bit of advice. To my suprise she said because of his age this is more than likely learnt behaviour and wont benefit too much from being castrated. She did say it could help a little bit but definitely wouldnt be a magic fix to the problem. She recommended training classes, he did go to some when he was a few months old because he was over excited at people coming to the house and jumping all over them. Managed to train him now to sit as soon as people come into the house and wait to be made a fuss of in peoples own time, so he is trainable!

She gave me a telephone number for one lady who runs group classes but we possibly thought more of one to one classes with someone experienced in border collies. I think i'll have a chat wtih my granda and see what he wants to do. Thanks alot for your help, its much appreciated
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Old 23-05-2011, 08:01 AM
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Re: Help with Border Collie aggression

That's good the ADPT website should have a list of trainers in your region.
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