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Old 19-05-2011, 03:53 AM
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Lightbulb teen worries, environmental change, ages & stages; ART

a good article on learning stages & sudden environmental change [SEC] or environmental contrast;
that's what most 'teen' dogs react to when they suddenly freak over 'nothing' in particular, or something that did
not faze them yesterday, panics them today.

<> DIAMONDS in the RUFF - Barking <>
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Old 19-05-2011, 07:27 AM
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Re: teen worries, environmental change, ages & stages; ART

Quote:
Between 6 & 18 months your dog is in adolescence. Becoming an adult. Living in an adult body with a puppy brain. Your dog experiences emerging territoriality and responsibility for the pack combined with conflicting feelings of puppy insecurity. Sometimes it looks like Jekyl & Hyde. While some breeds are naturally more vocal than others, the problem is magnified in dogs with limited socialization. Anti-social dogs become more so. Frightened dogs DO bite if cornered. If they find out that lunging and barking will make the scary thing go away, they will add it to their arsenal of behaviors that work.
Is the age too narrow? I seem to have run into such behaviours with 5 month old Fostering 5 month old Pup Litter Mate, BCs do mature more quickly than many (especially larger) breeds. She was acting like a "closed" adult, rather than "open" pup.
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Old 19-05-2011, 07:53 AM
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Re: teen worries, environmental change, ages & stages; ART

Thank you for this
I always read your links.
I am still picking up the pices with my 18 month old boy. He was attacked at WELKS dog show at 6 months. A German Shepherd broke out of its crate, raced up from behind and "had" him. We are still recovering from that; he is still anxious about dogs coming up behind him. When the judge asks to move the whole class round the ring, he can't move forward without turning and telling the dog behind to "Go Away".
Cheers,
Linda

Last edited by Born to Boogie; 19-05-2011 at 08:32 AM..
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Old 19-05-2011, 06:55 PM
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Lightbulb a collegue's insight & experience...

posting this personal experience from Gail Fisher with her permission -
thanks very much, Ms Fisher.

Quote:
May 15, 2011; 1:56 pm

If memory serves, I think the first time I read any reference to it was in Eberhardt Trumler's Understanding Your Dog --
An absolutely wonderful book that is sadly out of print.
Trumler, [an] ethologist & student/colleague of Konrad Lorenz, observed & wrote about his own dog packs in Austria.

To the best of my knowledge (& someone will correct me if I'm wrong), the first time it was referenced in a training book
was in my first book [co-authored] with Jack Volhard, Training Your Dog, 1983). We based the information
on both what Trumler had reported, as well as our own experiences as dog trainers, what we observed in our students,
& from breeding & raising Newfies (Jack) and Mastiffs (me).
We referred to it as the 'Second Fear Impact Period', occurring sometime after 16 weeks, & sometimes occurring
more than once, based on our own observations.

Prior to that time, the 8-11 week fear period had been referred to as the 'Fear Imprint' period,
but Jack and I didn't feel 'imprint' was applicable in this case, so we chose the word 'impact' instead.

At the time, I [taught] classes at a location where there was a lawn jockey next to the walkway into the building.
I noticed that my students' dogs would pass this silly statue week after week, but then suddenly many adolescents
would balk & demonstrate fear of it. Approach-avoidance, or downright refusal to approach. It happened so often,
that I began to track it. I noticed several things:
It corresponded with 'adolescence', it happened earlier, if at all, in smaller dogs, and later in larger ones.
And it lasted no more than a week or two in most cases. (Keep in mind that I saw the dogs only once a week).

In my own dogs, I noted that my Mastiffs would go through what I thought of as several 'teenage flaky' periods,
which seemed to correspond with periods of rapid growth. These periods seemed to happen at times when the dog
appeared to have grown several inches in the rear overnight (I'm sure you've seen the "walking downhill" appearance
of giant breed adolescents).
The behaviors I observed were things such as one 10-MO who suddenly became frightened of the Christmas tree,
which had been set up and decorated for several weeks. Another dog one day did a classic approach-avoidance dance
with the bathroom toilet. Weird (and amusing) behaviors that didn't last, as long as they were handled properly
& not reinforced (either intentionally or unintentionally).

I would also meet (or have behavioral consultations with) breed-show exhibitors who [reported] similar behavior
in their show adolescents - fine on Saturday, & frightened of the judge (or tent, or something else) the next day.
That behavior fits with my theory (totally unscientific) of what may be a contributing factor.

My hypothesis (totally unproven and untested) is that these periods correlate with stress. The stress can be a two-day
show, in the case of an adolescent show dog, or can be a stressful growth period, in the case of my Mastiffs.
My 'theory' is that the dog's brain doesn't have enough sustenance to support both significant stress (physical
or otherwise) and mental stability at the same time. I would always up my dog's vitamin supplements
during these times, especially B-Complex, and it seemed to make a difference.
Of course I had no control groups, so this is totally anecdotal.

I hope this is helpful.
Regards,
- Gail

Gail Fisher, Author of THE THINKING DOG
All Dogs GymŪ & All Dogs Academy, "The perfect place for pets and their people"
Manchester, NH 03103; (603) 669-4644
Welcome to All Dogs Gym & Inn | Gail Fisher, All Dogs Gym & Inn | Dogs, Training, Dog, So you want to become a dog professional... | All Dogs Academy | Dogs, Training, Dog, Academy, Book
President, the Association of Pet Dog Trainers [USA]
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Old 20-05-2011, 02:11 AM
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Lightbulb dog worried in the show-ring after an assault

Quote:
Originally Posted by Born to Boogie View Post
I'm still picking up the pieces with my 18-MO boy. He was attacked at WELKS dog show at 6-MO.
A GSD broke out of its crate, raced up from behind and "had" him. We are still recovering from that;
he is still anxious about dogs coming up behind him. When the judge asks to move the whole class round the ring,
he can't move forward without turning & telling the dog behind to 'Go Away'.
aw, Linda, that's too bad - have U tried getting him to walk single-file with dogs he knows?
a follow-me walk to a known, happy destination might really help - dog A leads going out,
dog B leads coming back, but they don't get any closer than both dogs are comfy - nobody is reacting,
they are aware of one another but relaxed. Go to an outdoor cafe, settle with a coffee or cold-drink outside,
give the dogs a series of small but nice tidbits [brought along for the purpose, or BUY no-salt baked chips],
walk back...

taking him to matches instead of shows, where U can jolly him up in the ring with a toy to tug,
or have him AT THE END not the beginning or middle, would be good practice, too.

also, calmatives may help him - see this link
Pet Forums Community - View Single Post - dog body-language - and why it matters so much...
for What U can use, When U can use it, How to give or apply, etc.
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Old 20-05-2011, 02:42 AM
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Lightbulb onset varies, lasts 2 to 3-weeks; rarely results in serious fallout

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobD-BCactive View Post
Is the age [6-MO to 18-MO] too narrow? I seem to have run into such behaviours with a 5-MO BC...
[fostering-5-month-old-pup-litter-mate-2.html#post1801805], BCs do mature more quickly than many (especially larger) breeds.
She was acting like a "closed" adult, rather than "open" pup.
as Gail notes in her experience, she saw a fear-period emerge anytime after 16-WO; small dogs mature earlier
physically & mentally than do large or giant breeds, so if they have a 2ndary fear-period, it's sooner vs big-dogs.

in my own experience, 5-MO is a bit early but not bizarrely rare, just not common; 6 to 7-MO is more often
the ages that i see, but remember that most of the dogs i see are over 60# - the average is about 80#.
given the connections among maturity, adult body-size & age of onset, i'd expect to see 2ndary-fear periods
later in my average-client's dog, than in a whippy 35 to 50# BC.

the good things about the 2ndary fear-period -
- it has a softer, fuzzier beginning & ending - it tapers on, & tapers off.
- it very rarely results in any long-lasting, major fallout:
barring a trauma or major fright, it's only anxiety in the here & now.
- it can be gotten thru simply by good management & consistency -
keep training, keep the dog as relaxed as possible, avoid flooding.

so simple common sense & kindness will get the huge majority of dogs thru it just fine;
it's nothing to panic over or worry in anticipation, it's MUCH less worrying than the 1st fear-period.

the bad things about the 2ndary fear-period -
- the fuzzy start means folks who don't pay attention, don't realize it's begun.
- somehow a scared infant-pup is appealing & empathic, while a scared post-puberty pup is a joke -
or even an embarrassment; folks can get mighty irritated with their 'big, strong pup' when s/he wimps out,
unexpectedly, in public. Take a deep breath, smile, back up a bit & keep training - the pup really IS
worried or scared, give her or him a break, make some happy associations & don't hand-wring about it.

this, too, shall pass - it's just a stage, & a pretty mild one.
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Old 20-05-2011, 06:55 AM
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Re: onset varies, lasts 2 to 3-weeks; rarely results in serious fallout

Quote:
Originally Posted by leashedForLife View Post
in my own experience, 5-MO is a bit early but not bizarrely rare, just not common; 6 to 7-MO is more often
the ages that i see, but remember that most of the dogs i see are over 60# - the average is about 80#.
given the connections among maturity, adult body-size & age of onset, i'd expect to see 2ndary-fear periods
later in my average-client's dog, than in a whippy 35 to 50# BC
Think maturing fast is promoted breed trait for economic reasons.

Clients is a self-selcted group, people with small dogs seem to muddle through and leave unadressed more problems; they can resist lunging on lead due to fear based aggression quite easily for instance. The same thing in a large dog scares ppl and is obviously unacceptable. I think where I am small dogs (Westies/Yorkies/JRTs) are most common, then medium like SBT's, Scotch terriers & collies to small GR's & Labs (often overweight); with large dogs rarer. At all the classes I saw however, small dogs were entirely absent except for puppy play.

The attitude was summed up, by one owner I chatted with "When we had a Doberman we went to all the right classes and were very careful; you have to be with one of those. Now with a Spaniel we don't worry about any training." Easy to say, but of course they miss the benefit of calming & bonding effects with rewards based training.

Last edited by RobD-BCactive; 20-05-2011 at 07:01 AM..
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Old 28-05-2011, 06:23 PM
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Lightbulb from colleague Leah Roberts in Florida... more on teen-dogs

My puppy is going into adolescence; or what alien abducted my sweet dog and left this monster clone? - Orlando Dog Training and Behavior | Examiner.com
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adolescence, ages are stages, Diamonds in the Ruff training, Gail Fisher, Leah Roberts, lower threshold, new triggers, reactive, secondary fear period, sudden environmental change

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