Hey guys,

Just a quick check to see if i am going in the right direction. We've been working on recall for a while now, a long while. Daisy knows what it means, and obeys most of the time. However, we are getting in situations now whereby she'll be several meters away from us, 15-20 maybe and a dog will apear on the otherside of the road. Ears go up and she leans forward slightly, we say "Daisy, No!" and the ears lower. But then she look back at us, looks at the dog, then looks back at us. We say "Daisy, come here", initially in a nice playful voice. Once again, she looks at us, looks at the dog across the street and takes 1-5 steps towards the dog. "DAISY ! No!, Leave", She looks back at us, takes another few steps, "Come here!".... ect ect, usually resulting in Daisy trotting towards whatever she wanted to go see.

First, a little background. Daisy will ignore "Daisy, come" commands in a nice playful voice 90% of the time. We taught it with treats and toys and "Come" has not resulted in going on the lead or a telling off or anything like that. However, "Daisy, COME HERE!" in a really horrible, growling voice has about a 80% success rate.....bit horrible to have to do that every time you want her to come but hey, it works.

So back to the scenario, I belive Daisy is deliberately being defiant. She knows what she's meant to be doing, she weighs up the pros and cons (cheese or random treat : Greet dog, potentially have a run-about) and often chooses to disobey. She also does this with commands like 'sit' and 'down'. We'll say the command, and shell lean forward to smell if there are any treats on us, THEN decide weather or not to perform.

ALSO, as a final issue. Daisy has decided that she owns certain parts of the field we often frequent. Any dog attempting to enter this area of the field will be challenged immidiately ! Now shes a 16 month Labrador bitch so there are several dogs that take absolutely no notice of Daisy's warnings and stroll into 'her area' and should Diasy attack, they'll put her right in her place with little trouble. She'll then sneak off to another part of the field where she can sniff and eat some grass. However, some dogs are more polite and Daisy will take full advantage of this and attack, growling, pinning them to the floor and biting ignoring all yelps and cries.

The way i have been handling this is letting Daisy off the lead as soon as we enter the Park, as she ignores my commands when off the lead 90% of the time i have given up with the "NO"'s and the "Leave's". As soon as Daisy exhibits a behaviour i do not want i give a loud sharp "Oi!" which will often make her stop (unless shes attacking something). If she ignores me or does this action a second time, its lead on, straight home, no stopping for smelly lamposts, fast paced, TIGHT heel.

I have tried treats, my god we have gone through buckets of various treats with clickers, training lines, toys, fussings everything i can read about and they all work. Unless she decides that she isnt up for human interaction today. Then we may aswell not exist.

Many books i read say that a 'decent' trainer will have a mix of +'ve & -'ve reinforcement techniques at thier disposal. Of course it is inhumane to scald a dog for poor recall if you have not taken the time to teach it exactly what you want. But there is little space for +'ve reinforcement for a dog that knows EXACTLY what you want of it and makes a conscious decision to defy you. Now they only thing i can think of to teach Daisy that just because she is not attached to me via a lead, does not mean she is out of reach of reprimand. I realise 99.9% of you reading this are going to suggest that i simply reward the good behviour. But sometimes she does not want the reward and i honestly believe there is nothing else in this world more appealing to Daisy than another dog or a smelly patch of grass. Cheese, chicken, kongs, frisbees, bones, dog chocolate, Salami, Liver, Kidney, Lamb, Beef, Gucci Handbags, NOTHING.

So finally the point of this post. How do you defeat the defiant dog ? Please dont reply with the "maybe you havent reinforced the behviour enough" if you dont believe me i will take video. I'll shout "come" in a lovely voice, she will run towards the dog, have a smell and bow to play. If the dog is not interested in her she will immediately come bolting back to me full speed, sit infront and wag tail as if to say 'There, i came, lets have the treat'

I worry because of course, using my current method of training which is, 'Do what i want and you get treat, disobey me and we go home' often cuts her exercise time per day by quite alot !!'

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Handle every stressful situation like a dog; If you cannot eat it or play with it, simply pee on it and walk away !

Hey, I am having an awful time teaching our 5month lab X Zach recall. In fact earlier coming back from the park I was nearly in tears on the phone to OH because it gets so bloody frustrating. We are keeping him on the long lead because he is miles behind Daisy in the learning pathway and literally wont come back once he spots a new friend to play with.

Saying "Zach.... come!!!" really playfully just never grabs his attention so I normally have to reel him in with the long lead (which usually by this point is wrapped around his leg and the other dog, ugh). My partner says I need to be more firm and shout it like an order rather than a request so I too may try the "Zach COME HERE!" thing.

It seems that Daisy is still in the typical lab teenager stage where she is ultra confident and, like you say, weighs up the options... treat from you or fun with another dog... and then runs off to play, choosing to ignore you. I'm not sure if you've tried this and dont think im patronising you by making suggestions (lol believe me if you could've seen me down the park, I know I'm no expert)... but a dog trainer pointed out the other week that humans are soooo boring to the dog, just standing there saying "Daisy come!" with a bit of cheese as in incentive. I mean, if you were a dog wouldnt you choose a fun playmate over a dull human? So, I think we have to make a game of it. What I've done is bought a squeaky tennis ball (easy to put in pocket). Everytime Zach sees another dog and the ears go up, I run like a looney away from him squeaking the toy. Then, I am not only offering him praise and treats, but also an equally fun game as what he would have with the other dog.

Yes it may be frustrating and Yes it will be embarrassing but hopefully soon she will learn that you are just as much fun on walk as other dogs can be

Good luck

ps. I'm so worried after reading your post thinking that I may have another year of this.... doh!!

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Ha ! Its not just me then. Which is nice to know because ALL the other dogs that are down my park are perfectly trained dogs which makes mine look like she needs an ASBO ! Even ones alot younger than her seem alot more intent on pleasing thier owners and more often than not Daisy will get barked at as she tries to play with them and she gets in the way of that dog and thier owner. Wish mine was like that !

Yea we tried that with a squeky toy, didnt work. We upped the anti a little by getting a squeaky bunny rabbit. Daisy LOVES rabbits, or maybe hates them and is intent on bringin every last one of them to a grizzly end. Either way, a plastic squeaky bunny was enough to pull her attention away from ANYTHING......once. She turned round, bolted towards me as i was running and then promptly jumped up, and started biting my arm and tugging me to the floor so she could get the bunny. I of course did NOT give it to her after that and gave her a firm "No" at which point she kinda went 'Right then well screw you' and ran off to the dog. Since then i have tried throwing the bunny as she approaches me, she'll chase it untill it lands, then do an about turn and bolt it towards the dog again.

We have spend quite alot of money on various dog trainer classes, 1on1 sessions ect and they either result in them saying "try better treats" or them saying "Some dogs just arent interested in humans".....which is kinda like a Doctor saying "Some humans are just sick" if you ask me.

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Handle every stressful situation like a dog; If you cannot eat it or play with it, simply pee on it and walk away !

LOL omg I am so happy I've read this thread because that is exactly what its like for me!! I get awful looks from people with their perfectly trained pooches. If I ever let Zach off the long line I get scowls from people that he tries to follow (after their dog has had a sniff then trots off)... "You should have him on a training lead really!!" ... So all I've done the last few days is keep the long line trailing behind him so I can step on it should he look like hes about to bolt... then what do I get?? Looks that could kill... as if to say "poor animal" when he gets himself tangled up... and wise-guy comments like "err... is that lead long enough for you my love?"


DOH. Well then I'm fresh out of ideas lol.


Oh dear... I am looking into dog trainers as I type... Our initial classes are up so we were gonna pay for a few private lessons on walks. Well I hope they are a little more helpful than yours have been...

Good luck, let me know if you have any breakthroughs...

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I haven't actually put this into practice yet... but our dog trainer advises that rather than recall and saying 'come' all the time you should pretend to be an aeroplane!

Yep, in her written notes it says to put your arms up, make the noise and run! This should get their atttention, plus just about everyone else in the park!

Let me know if it works...

H x

LOL sounds fun! Well we went to a dog trainer and he doesnt want us to let him off the lead until we have complete control over him in the house. I have been letting him have a good run around in an enclosed field where he always comes back to me anyway (very rarely other dogs there).

At the min I'm concentrating on no pulling on the lead and being Mrs boss at home, while waiting for the trainer to come back from saving some monkeys in thailand (some people have the best jobs!)... when he returns we shall try the recall. I will be trying this aeroplane out dont u worry!!

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Does your dog understand that they are disobeying you and that when it does it goes home? Does it sulk when it goes home? I am guessing no to both of these because it is unable to associate punishment to bad behaviour that was done 5 seconds ago let alone the timew it take you to get to the car and hoem again. All the dog sees here is "When I come to you or you come to me the likely hood is I am going home, therefore I want to play so i won't come back and if you want me you come and get me as I don't want to go home".

Don't mean this to sound harsh but I will be honest with what you have written - it sounds like she doesn't respect you, she respects the treat. If you have been using the treat a lot it will become a given. Dillon is the same. He will have to be told a few times and even have to have a little pressure on his behind to sit but put a treat in front of his nose and he sits quicker than a 5yr old playing musical chairs. He'll do all the other stuff first time more or less but I didn't use food treats I used a toy and gradually phased it out unless I am teaching him a new trick or reinforcing an old one.

Try just sitting with her on the lead at a distance from "her patch" so she can see the other dogs walkign through it, sniffing it, markign it and playing in it. Do this for as long as it takes for her to calm down and correct any barking, lunging or other poor behaviour until she relaxes. If the other dogs don't react to her she will soon calm down.

oh my that sounds fantastic lol, just a long way off for us yet... I will give it a go though!

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Yea, that is EXACTLY what it is. No doubt. There is no interest in humans what-so-ever. I dont really understand it to be honest. I mean maybe if i tied her up in the garden all day, only letting her in for food and then back out in the kennel id understand her lack of interest for me but. I play with her ALOT, we train alot, go on atleast 2hrs worth of adventures a day, often take her to strange new places on the weekend and even take her out to dinner !!! but she has little interest in us.

She'll come bounding over to you with the happiest face ever, smell your hands and then walk off if there is nothing in them. We did try and ween of treats once a trick or command was learned but i dont think we did it right. We started off by sometimes giving a treat, sometimes giving a toy. TO begin with it was more often treats than toy, then we swapped to more often toys than treats but she never...EVER pays attention to the toy. Infact, she never plays when outside. Only things she'll do is jump up and bite ya arms if you do that aeroplane thing ...that hurt !

So no, i dont take any offence from you with that comment about respect because its pretty much spot on.

I have read many places that dogs cannot link the delayed punishment with a previous crime. But honestly, yes she does sulk. Infact, often she'll collapse on the floor, refusing to move. I have switched from a collor to a harness when walking her so that when she does collapse, i simply keep walking, she can walk on her feet, or slide along the grass on her belly....up to her, she gets up soon enough. When we return home (which is a 2min walk, doesnt involve cars) she will lay in her bed and refuse to wag her tail or roll over for a belly scratch for atleast 10-15mins.

I believe she does know she is disobeying as she constantly looks behind her to check my reaction. Sometimes there are dogs that Daisy loves to play with and i do not stop this, i say "go on then" and she bolts over there without a second thought. When i say "Daisy, leave!" she'll take a few steps, stop take a few more, stop looking back and looking VERY guilty as in "please dont punish me for what im about to do, look, im very cute"

I have been doing this for about a week now. Its SLOWLY begining to sink in but i do have a few q's about it.

1. Does your dog being all excited at the end of the lead not attract
other dogs attention and then they run over?

Something daisy learnt quick is if she is on the end of a lead and unable to run over to said dog, Enough jumping about and whining will get the dog to come to her. Now she doesnt need to be off the lead cos the dogs right here and she can play with it all she wants.

2. When she's on full extension pulling towards the dog and you say
"<dog> No!, Come." and of course, she COMPLETELY ignores you,
do you just shut-up and wait for her to respond, or do you say it
again and again untill she responds to it ?

Thanks= you for all the replies regarding this issue. Although its not the most severe in the world, its seeping the fun out of taking Daisy out. She doesnt play with me or anything when she's outside so the least id like her to do is listen to basic commands. I know its my shortcomings that are fuelling this but i cannot see a way round it myself and local trainers all say the same thing with the same degree of success.

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Handle every stressful situation like a dog; If you cannot eat it or play with it, simply pee on it and walk away !

Methical - for an update since we last spoke about this. I did find a dog trainer, went to see him and had a good moan about the recall. He simply asked if we had complete control in the house - I said no.

He said before we regain control in the house there is no way we'll be able to teach recall because he doesnt have a clue who the leader is; who's in charge. He has taught us how to walk to heel and has gone on holiday for 2weeks, and until he gets back and comes to our house to teach us to regain control, we aint allowed to let him off lead. Apparently the more you are letting the dog off the worse it will get as they are always being positively reinforced... every time they ignore you they get a treat (in the form of play with another dog) and so he is literally learning to run off rather than learning to come back... doh.

We apparently have to know he will come back before we let him off.

Could be his way of getting a pricey set of lessons... but I'm willing to give it a go...

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