I've found a good place to people watch is the Supermarket car park. The wife goes in the supermarket and I open the back of the car and sit with my leg across the back. He gets to see lots of people pushing trolleys and they all ignore him because they're busy. I'm guessing he also feels safe in the back of the car... never tries to come through even tho there's no guard.

It's probably because the "can I touch the dog?" occurs with families with small children. Parents wanting to teach their kids to be cautious.

My main issues have been dog walkers with urge to treat someone else dog, despite their own dog actually doing guarding, so actually nipping, or encouraging jumping up (least when it's not wet & muddy).

Hello. I can't send a pic right now as I'm not near the computer. One of my dogs is fearful of strangers and will react negatively if approached.

He now wears a high viz jacket saying "no touch, talk or eye contact".

This has had amazing results. He is no longer stuck on a lead because I worry about other people. Most people (dog owners) are really helpful and say what a good idea it is.

You can't force a dog to accept strangers approaching them. I think some dogs will always be like this. But if you can educate people then you eliminate the problem.

PM me later and I'll send u the details x

__________________


Do you own a DINOS (dogs in need of space). To find out more and to find a walking buddy follow the link!


www.dogsinneedofspace.co.uk

I've found it here - ART: 'Dogs are not public property!' - Ppl should ASK, not assume, not insist
Actually rather an appropriate thread given OP's dog's history!

I had a major problem socialising Spice, my Alaskan Klee Kai b!tch, after getting her at five months from Cumbria, where she had been enjoying the country life, to getting thrown into city life in the middle of Clapham Common.

She used to wee herself when people stood over her and crouched down. She also used to bark and bite other dogs, out of fear. She also used to anxiously chew things in my absence such as wires, shoes, anything to hand.

I quickly taught her "no biting!" whenever she picked up anything I didn't want her to chew. I then bought myself a training muzzle off eBay. In public, if she bit other dogs, I'd repeat the command, "no biting!" and put the muzzle on, which she'd have to wear until we went home. Its amazing how the behaviour of a dog changes when you introduce a muzzle. Robbed of their only two defences, barking and biting, their character changes completely. With the muzzle on, I had several strangers approach her, stroke her, etc, until she no longer simply tried to run.

When she was comfortable with this I took the muzzle off and allowed strangers kids etc to feed her. She got used slowly to accepting food off strangers. Its a great way to control the strangers' behaviour as well as the dogs. Just give them something to give the dog that the dog is interested in. It also stops them from stroking the dog's back or head which they find intimidating. Slowly they will begin to accept the idea that the stranger, sometimes with food, does not necessarily equal bad news.

Now, all I have to do is show Spice the muzzle and her defensive aggression stops. We no longer even take it out on walks. She is perfectly happy with strangers although does bark a bit at some larger dogs who she finds a bit scary still.

Another tactic I used when I felt she was scared of others or about to bite is I simply picked her up and carried her in one arm in the foetal position, vertically upright to stop the natural fear of being on their back, and also allowing them to look around. Giving them a bit of height and distance from others seemed to settle her.

S.

sorry to disagree, but this is NOT teaching a dog to relax & enjoy friendly strangers - muzzling her & then
forcing her to endure petting & handling till SHE * GAVE-UP * does not make happy associations,
nor does this process go at the dog's pace - both of which i strongly recommend.

fearful animals should be allowed as much as possible to approach On Their Own Terms -
exceeding their threshold & in specific 'making them' or forcing them to comply is called flooding.
flooding has a very high risk of sensitizing further - making it worse - rather than lessening
fears, as a properly planned course of DS/CC, DeSensitizing & Counter-Conditioning, will do.

the idea is to make her HAPPY to see friendly-strangers - not resigned to them or helpless.

it should be obvious that "showing her the muzzle" is a threat - the message is,
'Do it -- or else!...', not 'meet new friends, & have a nice time.'
a fetus is not 'vertical' nor 'upright', Simon - they are curled in like a comma, head toward tail,
protecting the vulnerable belly with the spine & ribs, & conserving space in the uterus.

__________________
terry pride, APDT-Aus, apdt#1827, CVA, TDF
*wolves R wolves, dogs R dogs, + primates R us.*
tmp, sept-2007

Thank you for all the help and articles everyone here has directed me towards.

Now I have devised a plan as she is getting better.

For the time being, I am doing everything on her terms, if she wants to greet someone she can, if she expresses no interest I will just tell people she doesn't like strangers please don't approach her.

I am continuing trying to get her better with people but she is at the point I do not fear her being a danger anymore.

She doesn't bark, she talks now which is an improvement.

We are working on it and the jacket has worked a treat!!

So, she is doing well so far. She has just been spayed so it may be back to square 1 when she gets back to her normal routine, but I'm happy to work with her through it. I can see the change and things getting better simply by suiting things more to her.

__________________

My evergrowing family

Skye - Alaskan Klee Kai, 2 years old
Echo - Alaskan Klee Kai, 7 months
Extended family:
Dascha - Heinz 57, 12 years old

To clarify - the muzzle was only put on her when she bit other dogs, not simply for introducing her to strangers, and it wasnt done every single time we went on a walk either... I didn't "flood" her with contact either, but I did immerse her in it as much as possible from a young age, ie having friends and family round, approaching her, feeding her, ie people I trusted. This was over the course of a few months not days or weeks.

Unfortunately living in central London and out in public contact with strangers is inevitable and the quicker they get used to it the better IMO... ie from as early an age as possible, otherwise they will have behavioral problems for the rest of their lives... Especially these breeds which are used to large packs. Absolutely yes do it at their own pace but if you see behaviour which needs correcting, whether its approaching other dogs too aggressively or biting other dogs or indeed humans, dont be afraid to correct it quickly. Positively reinforce the good behaviour, encourage her when she's scared but certainly dont let her associate bad behaviour with either a treat, affection or attention from yourself.

Giving the reward to strangers works a treat though trust me! Tell them to wait with it and let the dog go to them. Kids take to this really well as as soon as their palms start to get licked they are often the ones to back away not the other way round!

S.

oh, yes! i have seen huge packs of free-roaming miniature Nordics roaming over the countryside -
terrifying hordes of snappy little prick-eared, ring-tailed fluffies with teeth flashing.
* BITING when overwhelmed is not "bad"! it's a clear INDICATOR that U exceeded the dog's threshold.
it is our fault as handlers, not the dog's - we not the dogs, blew it.
there should be multiple signals before the fear gets to the defensive-biting stage... unless of course,
U have punished them into extinction?

* U cannot correct AKA punish biting - it already happened; U manage to prevent it.

* when i do B-Mod on fearful dogs, i specifically associate the scary trigger with happy-things: treats, toys,
play, calmatives, familiar stimuli & settings, etc. if the dog growls i'm too close - not the dog's FAULT,
it's mine; when i offer a treat & it's accepted & eaten, it's a test to see if the dog is still operant, AKA 'thinking' -
rather than simply emotionally-reacting & incapable of learning in that state.

so feeding a treat to a growling or barking or snapping dog is NOT 'rewarding aggression',
in this instance: B-Mod pairs nice-things [food, etc] with scary things which cause a growl / bark / snap, __.
we are too close or the stimulus or setting is too intense, if the dog is reacting vs simply aware;
but we aren't REWARDING reacting, & the dog does not 'learn to growl more' or 'learn to snap more'.

if the dog is reacting, back-up: add more distance, or reduce the volume of the storm-recording, or otherwise
make the stimulus or setting less intense. For visual stim, ADD a Calming-Cap to reduce the dog's input.
do something to either reduce the dog's exposure, or increase the dog's comfort to counter it.
reducing the dog's exposure is generally the simpler option, but sometimes ADDing a comfort-factor
[the fuzzy-focus of a Calming-Cap or the squeeze of a body-wrap] are needed options, like a car-trip
to the vet for needed care but this dog is excited in the car when s/he sees other vehicles passing:
the Calming-Cap allows the dog to get to the vet with less arousal.
i wouldn't suggest this =Unless= the friendly-stranger throws the treat away from them, or drops it
at a distance where the dog is comfortable, or drops it and Backs-Up to give the dog space to feel comfy
and move forward, etc.

Why?
because offering the treat as a lure can cause the dog to overstep her/his comfort zone to get the food;
when the food is gone, there they are! - beside their nightmare, or at the feet of the bending person,
or being loomed-over, Yikes!.... and the dog instantly reacts.
this can result in precisely what we don't want: even more sensitization & hypervigilance.

a safe version is Treat & Retreat:
U're the scary-person: toss the goodies AWAY from U & a bit past the dog, so s/he retreats to get them.
U are now getting more bang for the buck: the dog gets both more distance & the treat itself, doubling the power
of the reward & making the dog feel safer.
even better, the dog is reset to approach on her/his own: to get more treats, wait a bit, s/he takes even
ONE step toward U, immediately [without speaking or eye-on-eye contact] toss more treats => past the dog,
just 2 or 3, and again wait. See how this works?

the dog moves away & becomes less stressed, the food makes good associations, the head-down sniffing
to find the food is a self-calming displacement behavior, the dog eats which releases endorphins, finishes and...
looks up to see the source, takes one step toward U, and U immediately reward that glance, step,
whatever might be rewardable, with a few more treats AND... More Distance.

this can go on indefinitely, with the dog getting just a bit closer each time, eventually being at one's feet.
we have not loomed-over the dog, entered their personal space bubble, put our hand or other body-part within
biting-distance, or triggered any other emotional reactivity; instead, we let THE DOG decide to approach freely
WITHOUT luring, & they are rewarded for that decreased distance with more distance plus treats.
now they have more distance, they are again calmer, they can look at us, reward; approach, reward;
show reduced-stress signals: sit or lie-down, reward; lift their ears, head or tail, reward...

see where it's going? Anything that is not fear can be rewarded, with both More Distance: toss the treat
past the dog - And The Treat itself.

__________________
terry pride, APDT-Aus, apdt#1827, CVA, TDF
*wolves R wolves, dogs R dogs, + primates R us.*
tmp, sept-2007