Do you have another link for that? It gets flagged up as a "poor reputation site" for some reason by WoT (Web of Trust) and the page linked to gives a 403 - message.

As to other, I do live with intelligent dogs, I said "mental concept", in fact I know they learn things by conditioning, when they are helpless observers eg) passing noisy traffic does not hurt them, and their actions are not consequent.

There's also operant conditioning and functional rewards, but I don't think there's much high level thought, only if I please then I get the reward ie good behaviour works. They certainly don't understand "being bad" or "wrong" and that's a very common error by many owners to mistake appeasement gestures for guilt and confusion for stubbornness.

OK, so my 13 1/2 month old unneutered male, meets 4 yr old unneutered male a few hours back, both BC's my dog slight smaller greets dog & owner, does not do appeasement; there are balanced greetings. They walk about together tails up (CM would say "excited dominant"), like the cocky lads they are. They first met when my dog was a pup, and have met every few months since but not regularly.

They took turns to be out in front, were aware of each other's position when split up, and showed interest in what each other found.

There was not the slightest suggestion of any conflict.

That's against preduction of struggle for status, Dominance theory, with competitive males meeting; but fits in with loose groups.

Our interpretation is that there's no relevant ranking in such cases, they simply met up, know neither's a threat and simply act like peaceable social animals, knowing it's in their interests to do so.

A correct interpretation. However, they were just two individuals meeting, they were not in any sense a pack.
I can get on perfectly well with a stranger I meet in a shopping queue. If, however (for example) that person became my daughter's boyfriend and she invited him to come and live in my house as part of my family, it would not be anywhere near so simple and for the boyfriend to fit in peaceably and amicably with the family, there would need to be (spoken or unspoken) accommodations made, structures accepted and culture respected.

We foster for our rescue and some of these processes are very obvious when observing the way the pack accommodates new dogs

Mick

__________________
DREAMCATCHER SIBERIAN HUSKIES
Siberian Husky Welfare Association (UK)
"For I am a raindog too!" - Tom Waits
"Believe none of what you hear and half of what you see" - Benjamin Franklin
"As long as people believe in absurdities they will continue to commit atrocities" - Voltaire

I agree. Relationships are very dynamic and fluid. Most dogs just meet a few known buddies on a walk, but for a large group to live with each other, consistent relationships and rules are followed and generally deference is shown to the older individuals.

But again, this doesn't have anything to do with dominance really. If you bring a new dog into your group, I doubt any fighting is a 'jostling for position' or one dog trying to usurp another for power- there's just no need. It depends on the specific dog's personality, communication skills and their ability to get on amicably with other dogs. If they are none of these things, of course there's going to be hostility, but too many people attribute this to 'pack theory', when really its fundamentally to do with relationships on a personal scale.

Regarding your post saying you felt that some of our posts on here come across arrogant, I hope we can show you differently!

I'm disappointed, going to conservapedia for information where there are more trusted and accurate sites. Out of sheer ideology they dismiss the role of evolution on psychology. Hell! According to them the origin of dogs ~16kya is an impossibility since the earth to them is only 6000-10000 years old.

__________________

don't whine, Cory i'm sorry i disappointed U, but i was on my way out the door to meet an SD-prospect & handler.
i was not carefully researching any websites or looking for a highly-accredited impeccable academic source.

i was unaware of any 'ideology', simply looking for 'BF Skinner discredited', an unfamiliar site popped up,
i read their history of psych which covered the basics adequately if sparsely, & i posted the link.
i don't know squat about 'conservapedia' - but i know DAM*ED WELL that this planet is more than 10k years old.

what planet they live on? who knows... maybe it's in another star-system, & they're Web-guests.

__________________
terry pride, APDT-Aus, apdt#1827, CVA, TDF
*wolves R wolves, dogs R dogs, + primates R us.*
tmp, sept-2007

It's your own fault for continually coming up with such high grade work. Consider it a compliment because when I see you name attached to a post (and the name of others here too) I'm used to getting gold.

__________________

This encounter was particularly interesting to me, because they were not strangers, as a puppy appeasement was shown, and later on in adolescent I sensed my dog looking to the other, tending to follow. Today they seemed to interact as equals without objection. That seems to fit in with the "dogs don't really worry about status", the elder had not lost anything, he had gained a colleague rather than losing a follower.

This type of situation is more typical for every day casual dog meets, yet ppl casually talk about packs forming and dominant dogs, submissive signals by nervous placatory dogs and such.

There's also the common meme, that dogs struggle to "get one over" on owners, so you must be on your guard. Yet with small groups of dogs, who know each other, they're looking at us, not being "bosses" despite rejection of the Pack Leader theory. On large scale it looks something like this Video Cuts - A Different Breed Episode 3 Video: The Dog Whisperer the trainer has talked about pack in past, but was very explicit in his comments now in the programme that force & dominance is uncessary.

That said, my dog would wrestle and exert himself over a younger flat coat retriever, 4 months or so younger than him and some intervention was required on visits to stop one sided play indoors. This dog has now outgrown him, and on meet there was some surprise shown. I worried a little, that there may be some conflict. In this case, it appears age and greater intelligence and wit, has the Flattie following. I noticed in pictures (I wasn't present) that the Flattie is behind, and generally turned towards or looking at the older (but smaller) Collie.

Dumbinance theory, would say the BC was dominant and the Flattie submissive, and probably most casual dog walkers would agree.

I'm interested to see whether a ranking in some respects at least, is thought to exist in such cases, or if the watchful looks and focus on another (friendly) dog is simply regarded as curiosity? There was no conflict and no fear/nervousness reported.