OK Oscars Ad Hoc "grumpyness" with other dogs.

Seems i have whittled it down to being Male Dogs (as i suspected) he has a particular issue with unless they are significantly bigger than him or a fair bit older.

Example - 4 stunning collies posing for photos at Monsal head today, saying hello to Male collie Oscar sniffs and then goes for it, when i explained to the owner i think it is males he has an issue with she brought over the other 3 (all girls) and they meet and greet no problem at all

Oscar was snipped over a year ago now. Now if this isn't "some" sort "pack" based instinct behaviour (and i am not necessarily an advocate of "pack" theory") what is it that makes him distinguish between Males and Females ??.

Oscar has showed aggressive behaviour to Males before when he was approaching adolecence and decided that he was going to guard stuff from my eldest child (male)

Is this just a developmental phase, a kind of age and stage thing that will pass or will he always have these random issues

__________________


"I am not perfect and i don't have to be, before you start pointing fingers, make sure your hands are clean" - Bob Marley

https://sites.google.com/site/blisschalet/

it does not require that any animal be a 'pack' or 'herd' species, to distinguish between Ms & Fs
or even react to them in very different ways.

cats do not live in packs - but they are highly, highly territorial, & toms will beat the living snot out of each other.
M to M conflict of one sort or another is very common in many species - even asocial insects & solitary lizards.

re the RG toward Ur son, boys & men move differently than girls & women; they tend to be more intrusive,
more frontal, interrupt more often, re-direct others' actions, and so on.
the body-language & 'interfering' behavior makes many dogs [if not most] anxious or defensive - or both.
it is common for semi-feral dogs to be far more fearful of men or boys, than women or men - yet they have had
no specific BAD experiences with either gender - it's what they see & hear that makes the difference.


re the 'ages & stages' - How old is he? what breed or mix?
Giants mature mentally the slowest; toys, the fastest. What does he weigh?
[guesstimate of maturity, if need be, by age & weight]

__________________
terry pride, APDT-Aus, apdt#1827, CVA, TDF
*wolves R wolves, dogs R dogs, + primates R us.*
tmp, sept-2007

He is 2 and half now, cocker spaniel and is on the heavy side for his breed so around 12kg ((i think ))

__________________


"I am not perfect and i don't have to be, before you start pointing fingers, make sure your hands are clean" - Bob Marley

https://sites.google.com/site/blisschalet/

I shall watch this thread - Oscar sounds a lot like Zipper.
I'm pretty sure it's male dogs with Zipper as well - older larger ones in paticular (but not all older, larger, males sometimes he gets on fine) - he trys to hump younger smaller/similar size males.
He will be all teeth, fur and noise the other dog will back down, Zipper will go to walk away then suddenly turn and chase the dog off.
Zipper is 4 years old Shih Tzu cross weighing about 8kg - the behaviour has got gradually worse over the last 18 months.

__________________


A dog Possesses Beauty without Vanity,Strength without Insolence, Courage without Ferocity, And all the Virtues of Man without his Vices.

at 2.5 years, he's an adult - social-adulthood for medium to large breeds [roughly 35 to 60# or 15 to 25-kg]
is about 2-YO, so he's definitely a grown-up in everyone's eyes, including his own.

he was desexed around 18-MO? [a year ago, i think U said], so his attitude toward other dogs was already shaped.
i know this is no help at all now, but if this had been observed early-on, say at 5-MO he began to posture markedly,
& his group-class trainer noted it, desex around 6 to 7-MO can often avoid this intensification: the pubertal boy
does not then go thru the 9-MO spike in testosterone which tends to intensify ALL male behavior: marking,
posturing, scuffles, etc, across the board. but no use crying over spilt milk.

nontheless, if U get another M-puppy or someone else has one, it's good to know as they grow from infancy that
early intervention can avoid the later trouble in large part - since the pubertal to teenage stage, he could
be neutered in puberty & the teenaged stage would not have all those rehearsals under his belt.
i'm not making a broad statement, but specifying precociously-touchy dogs who cop an attitude around other Ms
early on, it's a helpful adjunct, & can save a lot of behavioral work, later.

- for now - given the dog as he is -
i'd be deliberately making distant appearances of male-dogs, under his threshold, a reason to party:
take along super-yummies or jazz up a portion of his brekkie or dinner with added attractions, & go somewhere
that U know U will not encounter off-leash dogs, but will see aplenty of on-leash dogs... like the parking lot
of a large pet-supply, if there is one nearby?... park where U can see dogs going toward the building, but where U are
unlikely to have anyone park beside U and unload a dog! - as that could be disastrous.

Open-Bar / Closed-Bar:
this is the simplest B-Mod i know, & very effective.
every time a male dog hoves in sight or sound [tag rattle, barking], feed, feed, feed! As quick as he swallows,
the next tidbit is in front of his nose... The dog is gone [inside the car, round the corner out of sight, in the store]?
SNAP - the buffet closes. [awwwww... ]

shorten the distance between as he grows less-interested in staring at the other dogs, & can focus on U.
he should soon have a simple default: dog appears -or- i hear a dog..., look at U for his reward -
which can become simple praise, or a fuss ["what a GOOD dog, YES, very nice... - with petting & smiles],
or a tug-toy - anything he likes.
the initial work is done with food because the release of endorphins that goes with eating = pleasure + calm,
which help him get some self-control; a toy does not do that - it also establishes a strong happy-association,
since food is a primary reinforcer - no dog has to 'learn' to love food, they must like food to survive,
so it's a built-in rewarding thing.


- note -
if the parking-lot is too small to find a corner to observe where no one is liable to park beside U, bring a shipping crate
along; if someone DOES park too close, try to keep him happily occupiied as above with the food/treats, BUT if that fails,
and he is over threshold, pop him bodily right in the crate when he over-reacts; wait just a few seconds without
loking at or speaking to him, pop him back out, feed, feed, feed, AGAIN if he over-reacts, Swoosh!, crate,
...lather, rinse, repeat. just persist - don't scold, don't get cranky, whisk him into the crate, wait, whisk him out.

the reason his stay in the crate needs to be SHORT is to help him make the connection: if i exert some self-control,
i stay out; if i lose it & throw a tantrum, i go in. Since his only 'clue' is being crated, he has to have several
chances to learn with each dog - if that makes sense?

if he truly gets manic [barking, wild-eyed, tries to lunge, scrabbles at the crate...], call it a day & go home;
he's blown-up with adrenaline, & the effect won't be entirely gone for 24-hours or so. [bummer]

a very good DIY manual for this is the book,
Click to calm - it has very detailed, simple, step by step protocols in the back, & excellent foundation
stuff on dog behavior in the front; if U don't want to read the WHY part, skip it & go direct to the symptoms
& the plans in the back; it SAYS it is for aggression, but in truth it is good
for any reactive problem:
phobias, hates cats, over-excited by being in the car, ANYthing. Just change the 'dog' thing
to the apropos trigger for Ur dog, & follow the instructions!

many libraries may have a copy - if they do not, interlibrary loan [one library to another] can bring it to U,
generally for the co$t of postage.

__________________
terry pride, APDT-Aus, apdt#1827, CVA, TDF
*wolves R wolves, dogs R dogs, + primates R us.*
tmp, sept-2007

is Zipper intact? if so, desex can help - it's not a CURE, but it's an advantage, & makes B-Mod easier.

try to figure what things make him more-reactive, or if that's too hard, WHAT traits are shared by the older,
larger dogs that he tolerates - are there any that he actually likes? not just doesn't quarrel with or posture at,
but whom he can play with? what sort of dogs are they?

some things will be visual & physical - prick ears, ring tails, coat color? LOTS of coat -- the dog looks bulky?
minimal coat, very slick dogs? ears drop to the side, like hounds or Labs? button ears like many terriers,
which fold forward with about 1/3 of the ear falling over the opening, toward the face?

it can be really, really specific, like ALL mostly-white dogs with heavy coats: Samoyed, Husky, white GSDs, Puli...
or very vague, like all darkish dogs bigger than me: anything darker than blue-grey & more than 10# heavier,
no matter what ears, tails, coat, etc.

the other big variable is behavioral: since behavior is a conversation, what the other dog "says"
to Zipper can be the trigger - they get up on their toes & give him a hard eye? he is INSTANTLY puffing up,
ready to rumble & eager to get at the other dog.

i'd do the same as above - grab a copy of Click to Calm, pair his triggering dogs with food [first],
then with other good-things after he has made good progress & his reactive distance has been cut by half,
i-e, if he reacts at 25-ft U can start to offer a tuggee, or praise & petting, at about 10-ft between him & the trigger.

__________________
terry pride, APDT-Aus, apdt#1827, CVA, TDF
*wolves R wolves, dogs R dogs, + primates R us.*
tmp, sept-2007

Enough said from LFL, really and nothing much to add.

Just because Oscar distinguishes between males and females, and has a bit of an irk with larger, male dogs does not mean you are advocating pack theory or anything. The only thing you are advocating (and rightly so) is the very complex and dynamic nature of dog-dog dyads! I would become an expert in reading his body language (although this is a bit hard to do with a cocker, granted).

I'm sure you've already explained this many times, but how was his socialisation? Males will always have a bit of competition with other males- more so than females- from general instincts. They have a innate programme that tells them that females have the powers, they don't, so in order to reproduce they need to be 'better' candidates. How much this applies to domestic dogs is open to debate, but there are definite applications of this theory, especially if a dog has not been socialised rigorously with male dogs.

Keep up the positive associations as LFL has outlined and try and stay upbeat.

Yes Zipper was Neutered at 8 months.
I think I need to keep a diary of when he gets aggitated so I can see if a pattern is emerging.
I'm pretty sure he doesn't like black dogs (he's black himself) but I'm not sure if it's all black dogs and I don't think it's only black dogs.
Zipper also carries his tail straight up like a flag pole do you think this along with him being black and having a hairy face/eyes could be setting the other dogs off as well?
I'm pretty sure that Zipper starts the agro but I might be missing something more subtle.
He's never been good when other dogs approach when he's on lead but until he was about 2 1/2 he was 95% sound off lead.
He happily accepts other dogs into our home but will bark teratorially as they approach or go past.
He will also chase off all dogs if he believes there is food/treats when we are at the park but is fine in the home.
Thanks for the advice LforL.

__________________


A dog Possesses Beauty without Vanity,Strength without Insolence, Courage without Ferocity, And all the Virtues of Man without his Vices.

Dogs react in an aggressive manner through fear, so all dogs are not necessarily fearful of all other dogs, although some are. The ones male dogs are often fearful of are other male dogs as they are the ones they perceve as the biggest threat.
the aggressive behaviour can become addictive because it brings relief of the situation. ie I show aggression, perceived threat is removed, next time i am in the same situation I will repeat what works.

I`m am worried by these statements. First, that you don`t understand how a dog can tell by scent an approaching dog`s gender, sexual state, health and a lot more, and second that you think your child is a dog.

Now, the reason dogs mark is that they leave information. A bitch wee is always more interesting to males - watch them. An entire male mark will prove an irrestistable challenge for most males to cover with their own. And that`s a spot of wee. Think how much more information they get when approaching the whole animal.
Your dog will react and inter-react with other dogs based on his experience senses and instincts. So if he scents an entire male approaching and he is feeling in any threatened by this he will react.
It was your job to socialise your dog so he is relaxed around other dogs of all genders. That seems to have gone awry, so I think you should start again, walking and training with quiet dogs. When you meet a dog that worried yours (most aggressive reactions are caused by fear), arc so you put a good distance between you both and the `threat`, then reward your dog when he relaxes.
Regarding your child. He is not a canine competitor. If your dog is becoming worried by him (growling etc) it is again up to you to teach your child to interact with the dog in a less threatening way.
Maybe a book on dog body language would be good for you and your son to look at together?