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  #61 (permalink)  
Old 29-05-2011, 06:31 PM
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Re: Negative Reinforcement

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LC
I'd suggest that the wording of "something the dog will work to avoid" will be clearer.
I've just been thinking Lou, these 4 things below, are they all learned negative reinforcement (= reward) behaviours?

1) So, I take my socks off to lounge around the house, my feet feel better that way.

2) I & everyone I know wriggle a bit when we sit down, I call it getting comfortable.

3) At some point in pre history someone probably put an animal skin on rock seat in a cave, 'I' would feel 'more' comfortable sitting on an animal skin than a rock.

4) I use a microwave, its quicker, less work and more comfortablethan standining around preparing food to coook on a conventional cooker.

5) Are many of these video avoidence behaviours negatively learned reinforced (= reward) behaviours?

YouTube - ‪E-Collar Trained. Dogs Learned Responses To Aversive Stimuli‬‏

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Last edited by SleepyBones; 29-05-2011 at 06:33 PM..
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  #62 (permalink)  
Old 29-05-2011, 07:35 PM
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Re: Negative Reinforcement

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Originally Posted by tripod View Post
You can't have R+ without P- and you can't have P+ without R- so thats why there is confusion because there is an increase in one behaviour (hopefully the desired behaviour ) and a decrease in other behaviours.

By rewarding sit (R+) you are punishing other responses (P-)
By punishing pulling (P+) you are reinforcing other responses e.g. not pulling (R-)

Its only in theory that they are isolated - in practice they never are
According to Operant conditioning - Reinforcement, punishment, and extinction - Wikipedia

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Originally Posted by Wikipedia
Reinforcement is a consequence that causes a behavior to occur with greater frequency.
Punishment is a consequence that causes a behavior to occur with less frequency.
Extinction is the lack of any consequence following a behavior. When a behavior is inconsequential (i.e., producing neither favorable nor unfavorable consequences) it will occur with less frequency. When a previously reinforced behavior is no longer reinforced with either positive or negative reinforcement, it leads to a decline in the response.
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Four contexts of operant conditioning

Here the terms positive and negative are not used in their popular sense, but rather: positive refers to addition, and negative refers to subtraction.

What is added or subtracted may be either reinforcement or punishment. Hence positive punishment is sometimes a confusing term, as it denotes the "addition" of a stimulus or increase in the intensity of a stimulus that is aversive (such as spanking or an electric shock). The four procedures are:

Positive reinforcement (Reinforcement): occurs when a behavior (response) is followed by a stimulus that is appetitive or rewarding, increasing the frequency of that behavior. In the Skinner box experiment, a stimulus such as food or sugar solution can be delivered when the rat engages in a target behavior, such as pressing a lever.
Negative reinforcement (Escape): occurs when a behavior (response) is followed by the removal of an aversive stimulus, thereby increasing that behavior's frequency. In the Skinner box experiment, negative reinforcement can be a loud noise continuously sounding inside the rat's cage until it engages in the target behavior, such as pressing a lever, upon which the loud noise is removed.
Positive punishment (Punishment) (also called "Punishment by contingent stimulation"): occurs when a behavior (response) is followed by a stimulus, such as introducing a shock or loud noise, resulting in a decrease in that behavior.
Negative punishment (Penalty) (also called "Punishment by contingent withdrawal"): occurs when a behavior (response) is followed by the removal of a stimulus, such as taking away a child's toy following an undesired behavior, resulting in a decrease in that behavior.
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Extinction occurs when a behavior (response) that had previously been reinforced is no longer effective. In the Skinner box experiment, this is the rat pushing the lever and being rewarded with a food pellet several times, and then pushing the lever again and never receiving a food pellet again. Eventually the rat would cease pushing the lever
Lou actually (unusually) has made a useful theoretical correction, though it's rather moot in practice.

The other responses to the Sit, like avoiding the handler are only P-'d if something is removed, perhaps the opportunity to walk away (handler clasps the leash).

The reason it is moot, is that whether extinction diminishes alternate behaviour, refinforcement of desired behaviour, or negative-punishment the effect is the same. It is zero sum.
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Encouraging good behaviours, whilst consistently avoiding practise of bad alternatives leads to extinction of the bad. So if dog sits 6/10 times it doesn't sit 4/10 times, encouraging with the right rewards (positively-reinforcing) enough for 9/10 times means it now fails to sit only 1/10 times, sit 10/10 means...
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  #63 (permalink)  
Old 29-05-2011, 07:52 PM
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Re: Negative Reinforcement

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Originally Posted by Lou Castle View Post
This last part is not correct. Each application of the shock is another example of +P. It's ADDED to the situation making it + and it tends to make the behavior of the dog, not to obey the recall command not repeat, making it P. So it's +P. It does not become –R because the dog learns how to avoid the shock. One judges which segment of OC a stimulus falls under by looking at that individual incident, not how the behavior ONE THE WHOLE is affected.

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Thank you Lou, I stand corrected on that point. Although I knew what I meant, I did not express it clearly or indeed accurately.

However, I will not respond to any of your posts with snips from here there and everywhere as, as usual IMO you are attempting to goad others into arguments that go round and round rooted in ego or personal vendetta and do nothing to progress anyones understanding or indeed help progress the field of dog training, dog welfare or indeed the enjoyment that I once took in participating in this forum.
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Last edited by tripod; 29-05-2011 at 07:55 PM..
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  #64 (permalink)  
Old 29-05-2011, 11:06 PM
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Re: Negative Reinforcement

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lou Castle View Post
Yep, this is so.
...
Nononono. While having a dog sit by a door diminishes or reduces the frequency of running out it DOES NOT PUNISH IT, under the terms used in OC. Diminishing something is NOT the same as punishing it.
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See above. NOT doing something (here not choking/pinching the ear) is NOT part of OC. Look again. Something must be actively added to the environment or something that is present must be actively removed.
Yes, I see that I lazily misapplied OC terms in these instances. This is the effect of terms being put through the social mill, I suppose.

Lou, I think you have some good knowledge to share but for God's sake, try and fit it into one post. I must have read the same point at least 10 times in your posts, when one would suffice. I don't mind sharing knowledge, but the constant quoting is not the best way to get your point across on here, IMO.
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