Hi, I am new here and wanted to seek any ideas or advice to help me with my dog. It's a very long story so I do apolsgise but I would be grateful if anyone can offer me any advice.

So 6 years ago me and my mom got a rottweiler x border collie puppy (Amy). This was our first dog and we had read how you should have the puppy between 6-8 weeks old. So we went to visit our puppy at 5 weeks just to see how she was and when we got there we found that the puppies were in an awful state as the woman had 11 of them and just couldn't cope with them all. She asked us to take our puppy that day and it was a very difficult situation because obviously 5 weeks was too young, but they were in a bad way. So the heart strings pulled and we took her home at 5 weeks, obviously I know what a mistake this was now but didn't at the time.

We wanted to do everything the right way and so took her puppy classes as soon as she was old enough. We took her to a kennel club approved class and as we went through the weeks we could not get her to heal. The people who ran the class even took her off my mom and even they couldn't get her to heal. Anyway, test day comes and she does everything except for walking to heal, but they passed her anyway, which i believe they should not have done.

To continue on the right path we decided to do the bronze level training class. It was here that our dog, only about 5/6 months old started to attack other dogs. She even did it in the classes but nobody ever said a word about it. Test day came and of course she failed her bronze, she didn't do anything. Obviously at the time, being novice dog owners myself and my mom had no idea why she was attacking other dogs.

We didn't try doing the bronze again but generally Amy wasn't a badly trained dog and so we just carried on with life. In the midst of all this (please don't ask me why, we know how stupid it was now) but we got a rottweiler puppy, bu tthis time at 8 weeks old. Unfortunately our rottweiler puppy (Jade) had food poisioning at only 8 weeks old due to the breeder feeding her the raw food diet. She became very ill and we couldn't take her to puppy classes but we did what we could with her at home from what we had learnt from taking Amy to puppy classes.

After Jade got over the food poisioning, she then had her cruciate ligiments in both her back legs snap (at different times, but within a short space of each other) and so she went through major surgery and has had arthuritis since the age of 2. It was at the age of 2 years old that Jade finally recovered from all her illnesses and during all this time it meant we couldn't train her properly and we were struggled with two large dogs.

During all this illness with Jade, Amy became worse and started attacking every dog in sight (although she never actually hurt them). We knew this was becoming a big problem and so decided on getting a dog behavourist in. Amy is very border collie like in her nature generally and so we called in a behavourist who had border collie's herself and had a diploma in canine behaviour.

The lady came out to see us and diagnosed Amy as being fear agressive. She said that because Amy had missed crucial socialisation as a puppy because we had her at 5 weeks she didn't understand how to behave properly around dogs and so attacked them to keep them away. Amy had also been attacked numerous times by other dogs when she was a puppy and the behaviourist felt this had all had an effect on her. She prescribed a pet detterent spay that just psrays out air and stops the dog from attacking because they don't like the noise of it.

So we did everything we were told and for the first 2 weeks it worked. Then she started to attack dogs again. This was all having an effect on Jade too and she started to copy Amy. At this point we were at our wits end but luckily a friend told us of a behaviourist she knows who is very good and works with rehabilitating dogs at the local kennels so that they can be rehomed. Straight away we phoned this lady and she came to visit us.

As soon as she walked in, she said Amy's dominant. She said how Amy was staring at her and challenging her, which she was. Both me and my mom had watched programmes such as The Dog Whisperer and It's Me or The Dog and knew a bit about dominance but it never occured to us that Amy was dominant because she never ever growled at us or bit us. The behaviourist said how because she is such as friendly nice dog (which she is, she loves people and has never bitten a person) she didn't need to use agression to get what she wanted. Amy just gave the sad puppy dog look and we would give in. The behaviourist gave us a lot to work on such as making sure we walk through the door first and pretend to eat out her dog bowl first etc... we did everything for two weeks and the behaviourist came back to visit us again.

In the two weeks there had been some improvement. For the first time ever, Amy walked to heal. The technique was to walk out the door, if she pulled stand still, continue to do this but if she pulled 3 times then bring her back home and wait 20 mins before trying again. Within days Amy was walking to heal. The main technique to help with the dog attacks was to use the leave it command. The behaviourist had said how because for 3 years Amy had been allowed to do what she wanted it could take a while before she accepts us as pack leaders. So for the next year or so we continued to work on all the techniques and the behaviourist came to see us numerous times.

In the summer of 2009 Amy had come on so well that we were able to take her out to dog shows (where she won many rosettes), agility classes and obedience classes where she never attacked a dog once. From May that year through til December she was the model dog. We had even warned the obedience school that she had issues, but they didn't believe me because she was so well behaved.

Then it happened. In Decemeber 2009, I did everything I was supposed to and Amy attacked a dog. This also made Jade go for the dog too and damage was caused. Obviously the owner was not happy and he works closely with a behaviourist, long story short we arranged to go and see yet another dog behaviourist.

This behaviourist said Amy was dominant and that we were 90% there with her, but just not quite. Obviously after 2 years of trying to become the pack leader it was very deflating to hear we still weren't in charge. This behaviourist technque was to hit the dog with the end of the lead when she went to attack. Also to tug the lead hard when she walked with her tail up high. I didn't agree with the hitting but thought that we would try to tug her (not as hard as the lady did) when her tail was up. After trying this for months I just don't think Amy understood what we wanted from her because she never put her tail down and started to look more frightened. We felt that this just wasn't working and resorted back to the second behaviourist techniques which had seemed to work the best.

Unfortunately, Amy attacked more dogs and caused more damage and we even had a visit from the police. We had no other choice but to muzzle both of our dogs at this point.

So for a year they were muzzled and we continued to try and be the pack leader. I then two months ago moved out of my moms into my own place. I took Amy with me as she was my dog primarily and my mom kept Jade. I have moved in with my partner who undertsands Amy completely and does the same techniques as myself. I had hoped that with the move she may improve because both me and my partner are a bit toughter and more assertive than my mom was.

Since moving it seems that Amy respects my partner but not me. 3 years down the line, I am still not the pack leader and still have to muzzle her when I take her out. 99% of the time, she will not go for a dog, but once in a while she will go for one and I can't take the risk of her hurting another dog because if she does she could be put down. Overall, she is a lovely dog who respects me in the house but as soon as I take her out, I seem to lose some control. She still walks to heal, slightly behind me even. She sits when she's told and does all the right things but if there is one dog she decides she wants to bully then I have no control.

It's been 3 years, and I really don't know what to do anymore. Has anyone got any advice on how I can get her to completely stop attacking dogs so that she doesn't have to wear a muzzle and I can take her to dog shows again.

Thanks for reading, sorry for the long story.

No really advice - but didn't want to read and run. I think its going to be difficult for anyone on this forum to offer real advice without seeing your dog in person.

You clearly love your dog and have worked hard to help her, and unfortunately it seems you've received some real duff advice from some so called experts.

Can I recommend a book for you to read which provides some valuable advice on leadership and the relationship with your dog - it called "Bones would rain from the sky" and its available from Amazon (Bones Would Rain from the Sky: Deepening Our Relationships with Dogs: Amazon.co.uk: Suzanne Clothier: Books)

Remember you are the entire world for her and even if she never is able to be completely trustworthy around other dogs she will always be your faithful companion.

Good luck for the future.

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Jack - Black Labrador
Nalsy & Ponch - Purebred bedwarming moggies

Thanks for the reply.

I did guess that I may not get any answers, but I just don't know what to do anymore. We had bad advice and just got off on the wrong foot from the beginning and I do feel like it's not going to get any better to what it is now.

The second behaviourist we had has been the best and has remained a friend of ours but even she didn't know what else to suggest to us. She even said she would have our dog of us if she hadn't got so many already. I would never rehome her or put her in kennels because I know it would only make her worse and I love her to bits. It's just quite depressing when you have put so much effort and work in to and she still attacks dogs. People think we haven't trained her or anything but they couldn't be more wrong.

I will be sure to check out the book, thanks.

I have few questions:
Do you believe that if you become a pack leader, it stops a dog aggression?
And what for you means: a pack leader?

I think it depends on what is wrong with the dog. I think if you have a dog that is frightened then being a pack leader may not sort that problem out, but in my case I'm dealing with an extrememly dominant dog and every day is a battle with her. The second behaviourist had said she hadn't come across a dog as dominant and intelligent as ours. She has pulled some tricks in the past to get what she wants believe me.

A pack leader from what I've learnt is the person in charge. I don't believe you have to beat the dog to get that, I just believe in firm, consistent, calm and assertive handling with lots of praise and positive reinforcements when the dog has done something correct. I don't beat her if she has done something wrong, I was told that dogs live in the present and there's no point ignoring your dog ten hours later as it won't know what you're ignoring it for. If she does do something wrong, I've been taught that what's done is done, there's no point yelling at her after and the best thing to do is prevent the incident from happening in the first place.

At the end of the day though, I can only go by what I've learnt from my expriences of having this dog.

I'm sure more people will be along to provide more detailed advice, but I'll just say a few points. Firstly, I think you need to stop blaming yourself for not being a hard enough 'pack leader'.

If you read around on this forum, you'll notice not many people here subscribe to the 'Old School' approach to dog training, which tells you that your dog's behavioural issues are arising because it is attempting to be the pack leader. This is a really unhelpful and backward-thinking way to analyse your dog's behaviour. Before I got my puppy, I didn't realised there was a massive rift in the dog-training world, or that there was a way to teach/rehabilitated a dog without all the dominance garbage - you can use positive reinforcement to get a desired behaviour, and the dog will learn to enjoy performing the behaviour because of the positive association, rather than out of fear that if it doesn't, it will be punished.

From what you've written, it sounds like you've been given a lot of old school advice which by following, may have actually made your dog's reactivity to other dogs worse. The spray bottle in particular is something I can't see helping your dog. When your dog sees another dog, what you would like is for your dog to associate it with something good, so that its response to the dog is calm - you don't want your dog associating the sight of another dog with something unpleasant or frightening, like a blast of air in the face!

So on the one hand, you can punish your dog for doing something undesirable (going after another dog), OR you can teach your dog that only good things happen other dogs are around.

As others will probably say, you're not likely to get all the help you need from this forum alone, but I would definitely recommend searching for a good behaviourist who implements positive methods for dog rehabilitation - this means this kind of thing: [link], NOT this kind of thing [link]

I'd also suggest you get hold of some books on how best to help a dog-reactive dog, using positive methods - like Click to Calm by Emma Parsons.

The problem is that we did all of this positive reinforement training too. When she sees a dog I give her the command to leave it and most of the time because she does I give her a treat. We've been to numerous classes where it's all about treats but none of this has improved her behaviour either. She get's lots of praise, treats and toys and I don't punish her when she's done something wrong. If she didn't leave the dog, I don't hit her or punish her in anyway, she just doesn't get the treat, because she hasn't done what I asked. I completely believe in rewarded the dog when it's done something right and not punishing it.

So please don't think that I hit my dog or punish her because I don't. I also cannot afford to pay for any more behaviourists at the moment, I have easily spent £500 on behaviourists already and just can't afford another at the moment.

I know about the whole old school pack leader debate and everything else too. But at the end of the day, I can only go from my personal experiences. I've dedicated everything to trying to solve the problem, but no one seems to be able to help me, whether they believe in being a pack leader or not. I've tried both ways and am at my wits end with what to do.

Oh and we've tried clicker training too, everything I can think of we've done. and why is it that she doesn't attack dogs when my partner walks her? but she does with me? surely that's a dominance issue? He treats her exactly the same way, and heonly met my dog when she was 3 years old.

It is very frustrating and anyone would find it difficult to deal with having tried so many options. I'm sorry I can't offer more help, but would definitely recommend the Parsons book as something to look into.

And did you look at the Podee Aggression video? Have you tried doing what Dr Sophia Yin is doing with that dog? She is continually capturing his attention and not allowing him the opportunity to fail. I don't think it's a matter of simply giving the dog treats and not punishing it when it does get aggressive - it's about managing the dog's focus and consequently its reaction to other dogs.

We have taught her the watch it command and always try to get her focused on us instead of the dog but it is near impossible, it doesn't matter whether you try waving her favourite treat infront of her or squeaking her favourite toy or whatever it is, if she decides she wants to attack a dog then it doesn't seem to matter what you do. We get her to sit just like the video if we are presented with a dog up close. She is very attentive and watches me and I give her treats when she does. Sometimes she keeps looking towards the dog and I correct her but when the dog walks past if she decides she wants to attack it, she would just dodge round you quick as a flash and still attack the dog, so that method doesn't seem to work for me.

Treats, paise or toys don't seem to make any difference to her. When she wants to attack that's it. As I say, what else do i do? Feel like I've tried every method possible, and I'm not even 100% sure why she is doing what she is doing because I've been told so many different reasons.

Yours is a very long post, but I have tried to pick out the most important factors.
Amy Rottie/collie cross at 5 weeks out would have missed out on a good portion of the canine socialisation period which is around 3 to 7 wks approx.
Pups bite bark chse and play games, learning how to interact, with mum to teach discipline when the bite each other two hard or go too over the top.
Missing that she has missed out on a good porrtion of this. Pups also have a fear impact period around 8 to 11 weeks they have a preprogrammed fearfullness that stops them getting into situations they cannon deal with, any bad experiences during this period can become fixed in the dogs mind.

You said that at puppy class the only problem seemed to be walking to heel, and that the trainers took her off your mum and they couldnt get her to walk to heel either. You dont mention, what methods they used. Did happen to be the lead jerking and rough handling by any chance?

You say that at 5/6mths she started attacking dogs and was going to bronze class and this wasnt picked up on. Did they use any rough handling methods at this bronze class? Her attacking dogs would have co-incided with Fear of the Unknown period 6 to 14mths approx. Where even dogs that were confident before can start to react again to sights sounds and situation again with fear. Any scolding or rough handling will heighten the fear, any petting and soothing will reward it and can make it worse. Depending on how this stage was dealt with it could have caused further problems. In the midst of this as you said you also introduced a 8 weeks pup, who owing to her food poisoning and cruciate damage and ops would have missed out on a lot of socialisation and habituation when going through her own fear and other developemental stages.

I agree with your first behaviourist I think Amys problem was lack of socialisation canine wise and therefore manifested in fear agression. Dogs will bounce of each other emotional wise, so part of Jades problems may have been caused by Amy, but she would have had issues of her own too because of what she missed out on. Why your behaviorist 1 suggested a detterent spray on a dog she had diagnosed with fear aggression and a breed that is half collie known to be sensitive to stimulus though god only knows. You do not use this method on a fear aggresive dog. It may have worked for awhile,
but usually in the end just exacerbates fear problems and makes them worse.

Behaviourist 2 seems to have made her assumption that Amy was Dominant on the fact that she staring at her challengingly when she entered. She is part collie they "eye" she may have been fixing her gaze on her because of fear and uncertainty. Wouldnt you if someone then went on to tug you about hard on a lead and hit you with it when you barked at other dogs. That would just teach her, that dogs mean, you are rough handled and hit, when you are barking at them, trying to get them to go away. Dogs have a limited response to things that frighten them. Run away Flight (On a lead they cant)
Avoidence showing appeasement with body language (Again on a lead they are hampered and havent a lot of space) Or lastly FIght, bark,growl look scary, hoping the dog will go away, or if that doesnt work, then attack and hope they get the message. If Jade joined in too it could be part back up 2 Amy (They are a pack) or Jade herself had missed out on a lot too, coomunication wise because of her own illnesses.

You say Amy is fine in the house, but outside 99% of the time she is ok and will not go for other dogs just occasionally and she walks to heel. Its possible that certain dogs frighten her or makes her feel threatned she therefore then reverts to her previous behaviour. If you are unconfident and dont remain calm then that will transfer to her. The only Pack leadership you need to worry about, Is firm but fair handling, on going reward based training, and building the dogs trust in you by being consistent, calm and in control.

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