Scenario - 8mth old golden retriever/mini poodle cross and 8yr old son plus other stuff.

Our son is extremely energetic, he runs around the house screaming and jumping off the couches (not all the time of course) and he was doing this long before we got a puppy. With Biscuit he has often run round on all fours acting like a dog and plays rough with her. Not rough as in hurtful mind you. But she bites the hell out of him, not breaking his skin, and pretty much treats him like a littermate. We continue to have problems with resource guarding of stolen items and so trade treats with her, however sometimes it is hard to get her to drop it. He often forgets and will just grab something out of her mouth. Well he did this the other night with a water bottle (didn't succeed and my daughter traded it for a treat), but I swear she was mad at him as five minutes later he went to pet her and she growled and snapped at him. A 'get away from me' growl and a warning snap. It scared the hell out of me and now I'm very worried she may actually bite him. She has all her adult teeth now and even though she's a small dog, her bite can be hard. She has bit over mouse poison and a bone she grabbed at the park (I HATE litterers!).

So we had a big talk with our son about not playing so rough, always treat trading and never ever picking her up. We told him that if he keeps it up she may bite him really badly and if he had to get stitches we would have to give her up. And that it would be very hard to do so because we would have to explain to anyone that wanted her that she did bite. That really hit home with him and he is trying very hard, but we will be reinforcing this a million times over I'm sure. We were already trying before the snap! But he didn't really grasp it till now. And it would kill me to have to give up this dog.

However I don't believe that trading up is really working for us. I have talked to people that say it may take till age 2 and others who say you've got to nip it in the bud, but have no ideas on how. Still others who say they took bones from their dog's mouth from when they were little pups, give them a bone and then take it away, yet we were advised by our trainers to specifically not do that! She will grab things at times just expecting a treat and other times is extremely unwilling to drop a stolen prize when it is food. We don't even make her drop it unless we think it's dangerous. And there have been a few other worrisome things. I don't let Biscuit bite me anymore, even when playing rough my way (which is not rough at all), but I find sometimes it is really hard to keep her from biting and sometimes the bite is fairly hard. At odd times my daughter has gone to pet her when she is lying down and Biscuit has bared her teeth and growled. My daughter of course bares her teeth and growls back and Biscuit just moves away or decides to be friendly. Lastly she is extremely attached to me, I am her number one. The last couple of days I haven't been able to walk her as it is just too bloody cold for me (-25 with the wind chill) and has not behaved overly well on her walks with my OH leading. We're not going to get a break in the weather till Tuesday morning. Even so I've been having a harder time walking her myself and have spent more time turning and stopping till she sits to get her to stop pulling.

I'm so sorry for the saga - just a few pages more! - but I would really appreciate any advice. I called two behaviourists, the one that runs the training program we used is unavailable right now and the other one that comes highly recommended doesn't have an appointment open till late February. I tentatively booked with them. There is also the self appointed 'Canadian Dog Whisperer' and while I've heard raves about him from some people others say nay and our own vet warned us that he is heavy handed (the clinic she works for has his brochures). Myself, I've been researching and researching lots of information about adolescent dogs and behaviours, but not finding any real answers.

Okay, that's the end, thank you if you've read this far and once again any advice would be appreciated!

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sorry, didn't want to be the 61th person to read an run...

I guess I would have done everything the opposite of what you have done so far so probably should just not say my opinion and leave it to some one that is more on board with your methods.

Why on earth you have let an 8 year old play around as if he was a litter mate to a pup, you are now paying the consequences of early actions IMO. The dog knows no better and nor does the child.
Also why on earth your daughter would antagonize the dog by growling back at her, she will get a snap one day and a full bite on another if she doesn't learn that a growl is a way of saying get out of my face I am trying to have some peace and space; you might argue the growl came from nowhere, but I can definitely tell you there would be a hell of a lot more polite requests from the dog which went ignored. Please google Turid Rugaas calming signals as she explains quite a range of body language which is incredibly useful to detect signs of stress.

Your son will find it difficult to understand why he is no longer to play rough with her, why not encourage to do some training with her to build a more solid relationship based on respect rather then who is the stronger.

Use a house line if you want the dog moving from furniture rather then ambush her, you need to learn to respect her space rather then manhandle her. Yes, ambushing her for a cuddle whilst she is resting is manhandling her. Let a sleeping dog sleep, I learnt this lesson ages 6/7 when I did the same as your daughter did and I still have a tiny scar on my face from where my nan's cocker bit me, on top of that I got scolded for having asked for it

8 moths is also a very difficult stage in the dog life, think teenagers, or hooligans to some It is time to bring all training back to ground zero and start again. I don't agree at all with the TV personality's methods you have mentioned and far from wanting to start a debate on this I think the proof is in the pudding and you now have a snapping, biting dog who as a teenager will not take kindly to being imposed subordination.
I much rather use positive methods where the dog does things you want because it wants to rather then being coerced into.

Why not do some clicker training in the house, it's a fab way to bond with your dog and especially at the age she is, if you have trouble walking her at the moment tiring her mind will work really well.
Play indoor hide and seek the toy, your kids can do that. She is a retriever cross and a poodle intelligence will take to it so fast and love it and love you guys more for finding something that engages her brain more.

Try to find a behaviourist that advocates a different method from the dominance one as it clearly hasn't worked for you, there is a reason for the warning "do not try this at home" after all...
That bribing works if you stick with it, stay calm, and set thing up for success by making sure you swapping with a much higher value item, like a piece of food she would never get other wise, can't swap a bone for a piece of bread (analogy!), would you take the bribe?

Hope this didn't come across harsh and hope it wasn't too long!

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Completely agree with the above post, you have been quite lucky with your dog actually being quite patient at times!

Also stop any sort of play which may lead to over excitement or biting especially with your son - maybe try & encourage play with a rope toy or ball & also get her to learn the drop command at the same time as you exchange one toy for another.

Dogs can go through a 2nd fear period between 6 to 14mths, where they can react to sights,sounds and situations again with stress and fearfulness. Reprimanding and shouting can heighten the fear, calming and petting can reward it and make it worse. Cant say it is this of course, but if she is going through this period and feels stressed, then it certainly wont help matters.

Young adolescent dogs can also be prone to hyper activity spates anyway
and if go too far up the scale, it can be hard to get them back down again.
If she is going through a fear period also and is stressed at times then stress
levels can make thm more reactive. Certainly as you have already clocked up
mad bouts of play, acting like another dog rough housing on the floor will certainly not help matters.

I would suggest that your son ceases all the rough games and playing on the floor with her in fact both the kids. Do you do any formal obdience training with her. I would instead of rough games introduce training sessions and very
structured play teaching things like retrieve and return instead. Things like a reliable sit, then wait before giving treats increasing the time between the wait and treating, will also learn impulse control. Once you have got reliable results with a few basic training exercises, you could include the kids getting them to put the dog through its paces. Kids really get a kick out of it, I did that with my youngest dog, she was already reliable so it was a bit of a cheat, but I showed by 6 year old god son, how to train her using treats, and he was as proud ar punch thinking he had done it all and got her to learn things himself. (Bit of kid phychology too and a way to interact with the dog )
You can progress from there for him to do structured play too, getting a sit before you throw the toy, wait, find it, retrieve and bring it back, drop then sit again.

I would also make a quite area or den for the dog, where she is given treats
like stuffed frozen kongs and new type chews and toys, so she can have down time and somewhere to unwind if the kids are going hyper, its somewhere for her to retreat too if she is feeling stressed or somewhere to put her to calm down if she starts to get over the top. The kids can be taught to respect her special place and not approach when shes there. If you make it a pleasant and nice place to be with rewards it will have good association and not be seen as punishment and isolation.

I Hope this might give you a few ideas to keep things sane and on a more
level footing.

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My dog did go through a stage of thinking she came above my kids in the pecking order..........probably about that age.
We got the kids into the way of being the ones who put her food down to her so she knew they were "above her" they then gave the command "ok" when she could start to eat it.
She does sometimes have a wee growl at my youngest son but he does tend to annoy her at times.Once she growls she then wants him to pet her as if to say sorry.
I can take toys away from my dogs at any time and as I am a childminder this is a must as younger kids do not understand and the dogs accept this and would let anyone take anything out of their mouths.

First thing is first - get some management strategies in place ASAP before this dog feels the need to escalated her excellent protracted warning signaling.

That means that dog and kids only get to spend time in contact if there is an adult supervising. And I don't mean ont he phone-distracted-supervision, I mean actually closely observing the interactions.

That means crate training doggie and limiting the kids' access to the dog.Your son's behaviour can be modified just as your dogs must be. We had a thread on here a while back, will find the link for you: Not a problem dog, but a problem child!!

There is absolutely nothing acceptable about play that you suggests that your son is another littermate. Although I doubt very much that this is what is happening its the suggestion that is alarming.

The constant snappy-biting is much more likely to be a conflict behaviour because this carry on of your son's is distressing and confusing.
This is often typified by the dog moving in and out of reach, wide open mouth snapping and some vocalising, frenetic movement and high state of arousal.
This is not safe for your son, and certainly not for your dog.

Your son and dog need to develop much more positive associations with one another so that doggie learns to value your son's input and so doggie doesn't feel the need to keep son away with protracted warning.

If there is an established resource guarding issue, as in teh dog is actively guarding which your dog is, you and your trainer (ideally a behaviourist) should be working on a systematice modification plan. The book MINE! by Jean Donaldson gives a step by step shaping plan for resource guarding and several different approaches. This needs to be take step by step and worked on in structured sessions everyday, not not and then nor only when the dog actually gets something to guard.
This may take months to get through as your dog has had a lot of practice at this behaviour. During this time, management (ie. prevention) must be stepped up so as to prevent rehearsal of the behaviour outside of training situations.

Your dog growling when lying down is probably part of the same guarding tendencies. Your daughter 'challenging' the dog with growling is waaaay too dangerous and detrimental to the successful modification of this issue.

Mouthing is commonly seen to escalate in teenage dogs and it is worrying that the bites are hard. This means it is all the more urgent to get working on the resource guarding issues.

Mouthing in play is due to arousal and self control issues. Play sessions should be shorter and never go long enough for mouthing to begin. So if we establish that mouthing begins after 30 seconds of 'rough' play, then play only for 20 seconds. Have an obedience or calming break for at least twice as long and then play again.
Teach your dog the game Jazz up & Settle down and work on foundation calming exericses. More on that here: Crazy Canines | Pet Central's Pawsitive Dawgs Blog!

The most urgent things here are to step up management and supervision of the child-dog relationships and get some systematic training in place for the resource guarding. Best of luck

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Anne, owned by Rufus & Tripod

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"I've seen a look in dogs' eyes, a quickly vanishing look of amazed contempt, and I am convinced that basically dogs think humans are nuts." - John Steinbeck

"If you don't want your dog to bite you, don't be an a**hole to him." ~ Dr. Ian Dunbar

Hi, another childminder with dogs, good for you, I have resisted dogs for a long time because of a full time working career and then childminding, but gave in last year and have not regretted it for a minute. It would be good to hear how parents are with you and your dogs?

I too have gone down the route that we take things away and give them back regularly to avoid hopefully an issue with resource guarding and we have not allowed puppy nipping with us or our children or of course the minding children. We teach the children that they can play with the dog but supervised and must not run off with the dogs toys and the dog is taught that he cant have their toys.

I would go back to basics, get the children and yourself if the dog is getting nippy to always have one of his toys in their hand or close by and put this in his mouth instead, give him the things that he can nip/chew and praise him when he does.

Get them to ignore him when he gets boisterous and leave him for a while before they play with him again, dont let them cower over him and pin him give the dog space to move away and if he does it this is the signal for the children to stop and back off, dont follow and carry on.

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TBH having had four children and always dogs growing up with them i'd say your problem is with your kids and not the dog!

In a house such as you describe the poor dog would be better off rehomed now before it's ruined forever. Sorry but it makes me mad when children antagonise dogs - it's heading for disaster and the dog will ultimately pay the price when it bites!

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Flynn - Kali - Britches - Bruce - T-Bo - Marty



"For the strength of the pack is the wolf, and the strength of the wolf is the pack"

First of all thank you all for your advice. I haven't had time to post the last couple of days, but I have taken it all into account.

I am a little embarrassed - I wrote that post after a few glasses of wine, it had been quite a day. I was a little too dramatic. Our son doesn't constantly run around acting like a dog, but the fact that he has done it is true as well as grabbing things from Biscuit without trading up and the growl and snap. We don't allow it persay, he knows it is against the rules, but he is an impulsive child. The very first thing we did before I posted was to get him to start training with her himself, before he hadn't been overly interested, whereas our daughter likes to train. That's where the 'problem child' thread that Tripod linked was so very helpful and the doggone safe website a godsend. We all sat round the puter last night and went over the site. I don't want to make him frightened of Biscuit, but we've told him he needs to learn what she's telling him and treat her with respect. We've come up with a plan to always read her signals and try to see what she's thinking. My daughter had only growled and bared her teeth back twice, tbh because her feelings were hurt as she does do quite a bit with her and does not get in her face or ever play rough. I told her not to do it again and to understand that Biscuit is not a human, she's not being mean, it's just that she doesn't know how to talk and tell you that she'd like to be left alone right now. My daughter is almost a teenager herself so she should be able to see the dog's point of view.

To address a couple of other points mentioned we did have Biscuit on a line in the house for about 2 1/2mths, also in the back yard as it wasn't fenced at the time and she was ankle biting/running away too much. I do take her to work with me for a few hours a couple of times a week and she is still on a line there. IRT the crate, she hates it. When she had her surgery in mid November we didn't want to put her in with the dish round her head and excepting Christmas she hasn't slept in it since. When we've put her in it during the daytime she howls - loud enough that our neighbour came over once because he thought she was being murdered - and our houses are quite spaced apart. It doesn't matter what you put into it or where you are (right beside her or nearby). Also she plays very little on her own, does little to occupy herself. I've bought every toy imaginable. The kong she will play with if the treat is easy to get, otherwise she brings it over for help or gives up. It doesn't help that she has dietary restrictions, no cheese, grains etc., she especially loves cheese, but it gives her the runs. I have a rolling ball, but she gives up on that after a few minutes as well. Chewies, pizzles, salmon skins, nylabones etc. she might chew for 5 or 10 minutes, otherwise she hides them round the house - I found one in the washing machine when I was putting clothes into the dryer. Basically when we're not playing with her or giving her attention she either sleeps or gets into something. <- and maybe that's to get back our attention as well. She is not a fearful dog, excepting the vacuum and snow shovels, she thinks both are evil and rightly so. If I have to vacuum in front of her she bites it, same with the shovel. I just carry on and let her go ahead and bite, hoping that she'll figure it out for herself like she did the hairdryer and blender. If we're walking and she's afraid of a construction noise or whatever, I say in a normal tone of voice 'that's okay Biscuit, it's just a ....' and carry on with the walk. I don't stoop to pet her or anything. Is that okay or does even acknowledging the fear reinforce it?

Biscuit is a good dog and I'm sorry if I painted her as something different. She really is the most lovable pup, she wants to friend everyone and every dog she meets. She does definitely have a resource guarding problem and I don't think we can resolve it without professional help. We'll just have to wait for the appointment. In the meantime I'm going to order some books - Click to Calm was mentioned on another thread, would that be a good beginner's book? I also want to order Turid Rugaas' book, I've read her website and many others on dog signals. I actually probably spend a good 75% of my online time reading dog stuff. It might be part of the reason why Biscuit favours me so much, I can read her myself so well. My mistake has been in not passing it along, but then again I've made so many mistakes and feel such a failure. We did a puppy training course that was very good, but my OH balked at doing the second course and I think he might now see that it's important as well.

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Sounds like you are really putting the work in already, apologies if parts of my post came along harshly, but it is brilliant that you have come back to the thread so constructively rather then taking offense, much respect for that!
I have "Click to calm" and have also done a workshop on clicker training for reactive dogs based on the same principle as the book and I found it very helpful and a milestone base knowledge on counter condition, but I have a nervous at times reactive dog, doesn't sound like Biscuit's case, but if you are interested in dogs' behaviour I think you should go ahead anyway for the insights it gives.
Not read "Mine" as I have never had resource guarding issues, but it is on the future lists.
Have you tried vegan cheese (although not sure of what is made, might be soya so better look into it first)? Or goat milk product? Might be kinder on her digestive system.

If she likes the attention so much maybe your daughter would enjoy doing some heel to music work? I still think search games are fabs and the retriever in her should love it. They are my stress management tool when I on a walk should my dog get distressed about something, if I can get his nose engaged, ears and eyes seem to follow suit.

Regarding the fear, I have a very stressed out dog with me and he does go into a flee panic at noises sometimes, depends really what her reactions to the noise are. Certainly molly cuddling doesn't do much good, but I found that when he is simply worried by something and should he give me a worried look I do a very loud yawn or sing to myself and try to distract him, in my case often detouring for a rubbish bag helps, I have a boy dog and I use his natural instinct to mark as a distraction tool. I also walk him in a mekuti balance harness that helps somewhat to keep him calmer on walks, as mentioned though this is for real mild stress levels (mine is a real panic attack dog, not your case). If he gets worried by something like a discarded large item (say of late a xmas tree...) then I loosen up his leash and let him approach the item in his own time to investigate or let him give wide berth I never force him to approach or tell him not to be silly, what is silly to me might be really frightening to him. If there is something like road walk in our path I do avoid to walk right past them in order to keep his nervous reaction well below threshold, I do this by scouting the horizon and not as a last minute turn as not to make it obvious that we are approaching "danger" IYKWIM.
Good luck, looking forward to hear about your achievements!

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