My point was much more general than you are making it. I was simply saying that the liberal - no negative reinforcement approach - to either people or dogs is a disaster waiting to happen.

No - they are trying to deal with the problem from a position of reality, not some ivory tower theoretical perspective.

and the kind of childish rant used by Terry at the beginning of this thread is the way to do it??????

I'm not sure if this particular barb was aimed at me, but if you regard my posts as "of an abusive nature" you must have had a very protected life. My posts are based on my practical experience and my education. Although my academic background is in Pyschology, I deliberately choose to use language which reflects reality, not pseudo scientific weasel words and mumbo jumbo which has actually been long discredited in human psychology.

Mick

__________________
DREAMCATCHER SIBERIAN HUSKIES
Siberian Husky Welfare Association (UK)
"For I am a raindog too!" - Tom Waits
"Believe none of what you hear and half of what you see" - Benjamin Franklin
"As long as people believe in absurdities they will continue to commit atrocities" - Voltaire

Now you didn't say that! Skinner's science says otherwise, and as many people had found for themselves before Dunbar re-popularised "positive training". I think if you looked objectively, you'ld find plenty of examples of "tough" approaches failing, yet being popular politically for reasons of prejidice eg) prohibition, war on drugs, prison system etc etc

Remember they used to hang ppl for theft of small animals like lambs, or transport to Australia for relatively minor offences, yet crime was rife. So don't just look back on the last 50 years either.

In fact it seems to me, truer to say "todays children appear to have much less freedom, than my generation did", that's due to media scare stories and heavy traffic on roads. Then at teenage stage, they appear to frequently reject parental authority in a dramatic fashion, probably because they have not grown up to have gradually growing personal responsibility. But that's just another view.

In my view, you're expressing a common fallacious belief, that firm tough action is effective, for some reason ppl are unable to learn from history and repeat the same mistake over and over.

You're dismissing the work of professional behaviourists and trainers, who work with real clients, others who research the actual needs of pet owners and what's doable. Some old school "idealistic" things were better in good old days view, cannot work, because the world has changed and moved on. Saying "it should be like this" does nothiung for any one.

Anyone who actually interacts with a lot of different dogs, sees huge commonality; they don't change their whole approach, wheras you hopefully would if you were asked to train a Lion or a Killer Whale, whom you won't be able to initimidate and consequences of being regarded as a threat (or food) will prove fatal to you.
No, the section that you called a "barb", from "What I actually saw", was the response to the creation of the thread at the beginning.

IME the best way to deal with a perceived slight, is actually most often to ignore it. That did not happen, and I don't think you're being objective if you percieve this post "my dog is a ______ and s/he is special, different from other breeds..." as a rant.

What is noticeable, is how long it took for the real issue to be raised.

However...

Personally I do not think it was wise of Terry to reactivate this thread, I actually drew her attention to it by asking for clarification of an abbreviation, whilst surveying for technical acronyms for the Glossary. Terry knows that already.

Finally...

I really don't want to be involved in a long exchange, I'd far rather be constructive than argue against entrenched positions, in threads that few ppl will read, once the initial heat has subsided.

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For eager & reliable recall, be fun for the dog to come back to! Then often send them off right away to do what they wanted!
DT&B - Glossary of acronyms & jargon terms.
Encouraging good behaviours, whilst consistently avoiding practise of bad alternatives leads to extinction of the bad. So if dog sits 6/10 times it doesn't sit 4/10 times, encouraging with the right rewards (positively-reinforcing) enough for 9/10 times means it now fails to sit only 1/10 times, sit 10/10 means...

OMG, I love this thread!!
Its like we have gotten a big bunch of 'dog trainers' and 'behaviourists' (professional and amateur, payed and unpayed, good and bad) and shoved them all in a locked room.....Then we get to come along and poke them with sticks occasinally!

Really sorry, but you are all too appealing for those of us with a twisted sense of humor...

__________________
SUMMER...JUST SAY NO!

I love my furkids.
dogs-Adam, Hannah, Heidi.
cats-Banjo, Bess, Eric, Tootsie, Blossom, Gracie.
Syrian Hamster-Inigo Montoya.
Rats-Ezri, Audrid, Emony.
Corn Snake- Kiora.
Kenyan Sand Boa- Kushti.

RIP- Winter, Autumn, Leela, Spring, Gandalf, Summer,Jet, Pip, Moo, Lilac, Wild Thing, Patrick, Frisbee, Echo.

It's not about toughness, it's about teaching people (and higher animals) that actions have consequences. The problem with the liberal approach is that people grow up feeling that their actions have no consequences. By the way, my opinions are not just based on old school prejudice, but 40 years working, successfully, face to face with teenagers on the street as a detached youth worker. The reason I feel that Skinner's "science" does not and cannot work, is that learning is not a simple (or even complex) stimulus/response conditioning and it fails completely to take into consideration the fact that learning is an interactive cognitive process - even in dogs (and if you had worked to any extent with sled dogs, you would understand that immediately).

The major issue with many young people I worked with is simply that no-one had ever said NO to them and meant it. As a result they grew up with a feeling of entitlement and no understanding that they would have to work for anything they got.

Mick

__________________
DREAMCATCHER SIBERIAN HUSKIES
Siberian Husky Welfare Association (UK)
"For I am a raindog too!" - Tom Waits
"Believe none of what you hear and half of what you see" - Benjamin Franklin
"As long as people believe in absurdities they will continue to commit atrocities" - Voltaire

Skinner's science does work, because of extinction.

Now, when you spoke of negative-reinforcement you are implying coercion punishing type actions, causing fear, discomfort or pain.

Now it actually appears from your last post, that our views may be more compatible really than the first impression I had.

Surveys with Scientific Empirical approach have shown that punishment does not deter criminal acts, what deters is the belief of high probability of detection.

So positive-reinforcement & negative-punishment works very well for me, and I see extinction, because I am consistent as are other main handlers of the dog. Where he was slow to respond, was where inconsistency was present. IOW we detect and respond to infractions.
The dog knows the routine and when he for example thinks about bullying his pal, I saw him think and look at me and choose not to bother, knowing he'll just end up by me anyway. No intimidation, no force, just solid effective training.

For example :

1) Jumping up greeting strangers; we had to manage unreliable strangers, not permit them to pay off.
2) Attention barking; all had to ignore and reward good behaviour, those annoying "I know dogs" types who stick their oar in, rather than respect our approach, delay exctinction!
3) Works for me, on every other person's jumping up dog, I tried; few days they auto sit for me, despite years of owner saying "No Jump!"; so fraid this is not a BC thing. This is every breed someone who walks dogs for hours a day comes across in a popular park.

__________________
For eager & reliable recall, be fun for the dog to come back to! Then often send them off right away to do what they wanted!
DT&B - Glossary of acronyms & jargon terms.
Encouraging good behaviours, whilst consistently avoiding practise of bad alternatives leads to extinction of the bad. So if dog sits 6/10 times it doesn't sit 4/10 times, encouraging with the right rewards (positively-reinforcing) enough for 9/10 times means it now fails to sit only 1/10 times, sit 10/10 means...

sadly, the reason i began this thread was to add some humor,
so much for that theory... i TRIED to point out that many breeds fall into a type, & share behaviors -

Chihuahuas act much like Terrierrrists; herding breeds chase, duh!, retrievers are oral & chew or mouth,
guarding-breeds are prone to... um, guard - objects, yards, food, doorways, etc; livestock guardians
patrol & often bark by night at every sound; these are patterns.
but i was trying to be humorous - & failed. ::shrug:: Oh, well.

I thought it was funny, Terry!

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http://www.gentle-newfoundland-dogs.com
http://www.royston-pet-care.co.uk



Will always miss you, my little Joshie Woshie xx

If you want real love, buy a dog

If you wouldn't use it on a child, don't use it on a dog

http://pettaxisg8.yolasite.com/
http://www.help-for-learner-drivers.yolasite.com/

I think I was half-convinced you were having some kind of breakdown when you started it but it is funny to read.

__________________
"A dog is not "almost human," and I know of no greater insult to the canine race than to describe it as such."
John Holmes

Owned by Buster cairn terrier mix and Leo netherland dwarf mix bunny

Me I'm just qualified to go pubbing with Liverpudlian Lagerhounds! (size does matter)

PS Lithuanian Lugerhounds piccies pls!!

__________________
For eager & reliable recall, be fun for the dog to come back to! Then often send them off right away to do what they wanted!
DT&B - Glossary of acronyms & jargon terms.
Encouraging good behaviours, whilst consistently avoiding practise of bad alternatives leads to extinction of the bad. So if dog sits 6/10 times it doesn't sit 4/10 times, encouraging with the right rewards (positively-reinforcing) enough for 9/10 times means it now fails to sit only 1/10 times, sit 10/10 means...

Well, that was silly!! Dont you know that the training and behaviour section is still on the transplant waiting list for sense of humor!!
I demand you be po faced immeadietley!!

__________________
SUMMER...JUST SAY NO!

I love my furkids.
dogs-Adam, Hannah, Heidi.
cats-Banjo, Bess, Eric, Tootsie, Blossom, Gracie.
Syrian Hamster-Inigo Montoya.
Rats-Ezri, Audrid, Emony.
Corn Snake- Kiora.
Kenyan Sand Boa- Kushti.

RIP- Winter, Autumn, Leela, Spring, Gandalf, Summer,Jet, Pip, Moo, Lilac, Wild Thing, Patrick, Frisbee, Echo.