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Old 17-01-2011, 07:54 PM
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Cool Help with dominant puppy

We have a 7 week old yorkie/rat terrier mix. We got him at only 6 weeks old because he was originally found abandoned at the side of the road by a friend of ours, who bottle fed him until he was old enough to eat solid food. He is very affectionate, loves people, and a darn cute little thing. We are having a few behavior issues however and I wanted to get some input as to the best course of action to ‘nip it in the bud’ so to speak, along with a few other general questions.

“Gus” has quite a dominant personality. One issue I’m having is a lack of ability to find an effective “consequence” to curb bad behavior and also have some general questions. How much of his behavior is age related and he needs maturity to improve vs how much can be solved through effective training.

Problems/Displays of dominance:
1) Nipping/being mouthy
2) Demanding attention (jumping/mouthing, whining, etc if being ignored)
3) Willingly invades personal space (jumping, climbing, etc)
4) Continues in behaviors despite constant correction

There are already several threads on the “biting” issue, so I guess I’m wondering about the issue of dominance in general and if i'm doing something very wrong in my approach. I’ve been trying to deal with this by first making sure he gets plenty of play time and exercise. This helps as he is much more relaxed when he is tired out.

Second, when he does an unwanted behavior, I make a “tssss” sound and use Ceasar Millan’s “hand as mouth” technique in which I “nip” his neck using my hand in a corrective manner. This has proven to be ineffective as he interprets this as a game (I can’t be too forceful as he only weighs a tad over 3 pounds).

I have also tried simply ignoring him or refusing to give any attention when he starts being mouthy. Nothing has seemed to make any difference in his behavior over the last week. I know it is only a short time, but all the dog books I read tell me that if a true correction has taken place, the behavior will change. So I’m obviously doing something wrong here.

Any tips on dealing with the general issue of a dominant personality (teaching him I am the ‘head dog’) or stopping him being mouthy?

Additionally at what age is a puppy developmentally ready to learn simple commands (sit, stay, etc). If not that, if anyone has any links or ideas to good ‘puppy games/challenges’ that might occupy his mind a bit, it would be great.

Last edited by bauer; 17-01-2011 at 07:56 PM..
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Old 17-01-2011, 08:23 PM
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Re: Help with dominant puppy

First off you don't have a dominant puppy. Your puppy is a normal puppy and its personality traits, in escalated form, are pretty much consistent with having been hand reared and not getting enough early experience with a litter and mamma.

Dominance, by definition, describes a relationship - so one puppy can't be dominant. Its a relationship, be definition, maintained by violence, intimidation and is only established when one consistently defers to the other.
This does not accurately describe the relationships canids have with conspecifics nor does it describe the relationships domestic dogs have with other species, in this case humans.

Quote:
Problems/Displays of dominance:
1) Nipping/being mouthy
2) Demanding attention (jumping/mouthing, whining, etc if being ignored)
3) Willingly invades personal space (jumping, climbing, etc)
4) Continues in behaviors despite constant correction
1 - puppy biting is normal and essential behaviour as the feedback given to puppies in social situations allows them to develop bite inhibition.
2 - yep its a puppy - teach acceptable behaviour for attention, work on self control something that puppies with a background such as this lack and have great difficulty developing
3 - yep its a puppy and just like human children they don't have an idea of human ettiquette, plus your puppy has been hand reared so has lost some education on this
4 - why are you constantly correcting a puppy/dog, if its constant then its not working? Manage your puppy's environment better and train behaviour you want rather than concentrating on correcting behaviour - its not working anyway

Tiring a puppy out is NOT teaching it more acceptable behaviour nor is it helping with teaching puppy how to self calm.

That silly noise and poking puppy isn't working (go figure) - up the management and teach appropriate behaviour.

Dogs don't see humans as other dogs so you don't need to be 'head dog'. You need to teach puppy that you are the key to all good things - you already do actually control his access to all resources but you need to teach him this.

Puppies can begin to learn simple behaviours using lure/reward training from 4 weeks of age.

Its Socialise Your Puppy Month on the Pet Central blog and we are posting daily training and socialisation plans for puppy & family, go back to the beginning and start at day 1: SYP Month | Pet Central's Pawsitive Dawgs Blog!

There are lots of great puppy and dog raising/training books out there and the best place to start for info on puppy raising is DogStar Daily plus you can download Dr Dunbar's Before and After You Get Your Puppy for free download here: Free Downloads | Dog Star Daily

Best of luck with your new pup - we need pics
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Old 17-01-2011, 08:27 PM
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Re: Help with dominant puppy

Quote:
Originally Posted by bauer View Post
We have a 7 week old yorkie/rat terrier mix. We got him at only 6 weeks old because he was originally found abandoned at the side of the road by a friend of ours, who bottle fed him until he was old enough to eat solid food. He is very affectionate, loves people,.....

“Gus” has quite a dominant personality. One issue I’m having is a lack of ability to find an effective “consequence” to curb bad behavior and also have some general questions. How much of his behavior is age related and he needs maturity to improve vs how much can be solved through effective training.
Try to remember he's still very much a 'little baby'. He's been separated from his siblings and although you say he seems to mix with people well, you don't mention fellow dogs/puppies. So I am guessing he's not becoming socialised with other dogs, just humans. And he's behaving with you, in the same way he would with his littler peers. basically, he's finding his place in the pack, and judging by your responses, he might well be as confused as you are!!

Quote:
Problems/Displays of dominance:
1) Nipping/being mouthy
2) Demanding attention (jumping/mouthing, whining, etc if being ignored)
3) Willingly invades personal space (jumping, climbing, etc)
4) Continues in behaviors despite constant correction
I want you to understand I'm not anthropomorphising your dog. (that is, giving him human characteristics, personality, responses...) but you have yo consider his age, and the fact that if he were human , he would be a demanding little toddler who craves attention. The above behaviour is the same kind you'd get from a 2-year-old little boy.
However, he's not a little boy. he's a puppy.
The best you can do is to separate yourself from his attention, by giving him a consequence.
Don't talk to him, make eye contact or be rough with him, but push him down, and block him.
If he persists, put him in a dog/cat travel box, which you then cover with a blanket, which cuts off his vision of you.
Wait until he goes quiet, then calmly open the box and let him out, without looking at him, talking to him or acknowledging him.
The consequence of his behaviour is separation. once he calms down he can re-join the group/pack. If he begins to misbehave again, put him back in the box, and cover.

Quote:
There are already several threads on the “biting” issue, so I guess I’m wondering about the issue of dominance in general and if i'm doing something very wrong in my approach. I’ve been trying to deal with this by first making sure he gets plenty of play time and exercise. This helps as he is much more relaxed when he is tired out.
A tired dog, is just a tired dog, it doesn't alter his temperament, and while it may give you respite while he recovers, it's not a cure, simply a delaying tactic.

Quote:
Second, when he does an unwanted behavior, I make a “tssss” sound and use Ceasar Millan’s “hand as mouth” technique in which I “nip” his neck using my hand in a corrective manner. This has proven to be ineffective as he interprets this as a game (I can’t be too forceful as he only weighs a tad over 3 pounds).
I hate to sound biased, but Cesar Millan is greatly over-rated and uses methods I frankly deplore.
This being one of them.
As you can see, it's ineffective. Probably because as he's such a young puppy (and abandoned) it's not something he's ever been familiar with anyway, coming form other dogs.
And if you watch other dogs, much as Cesar may insist it's a 'bite' I've personally never seen dogs do this.

Quote:
I have also tried simply ignoring him or refusing to give any attention when he starts being mouthy. Nothing has seemed to make any difference in his behavior over the last week. I know it is only a short time, but all the dog books I read tell me that if a true correction has taken place, the behavior will change. So I’m obviously doing something wrong here.
A puppy knows security by being close to its parent or carer. if you walk away from the situation, rather than staying to correct him (which is what other similar-age puppies would do) it might have a more marked effect. The moment he begins his antics, get up and walk out of the room.

Quote:
Any tips on dealing with the general issue of a dominant personality (teaching him I am the ‘head dog’) or stopping him being mouthy?
When he bites, squeal. Loudly and sharply, and pull your hand away. Then get up and walk away. say nothing more, do not make eye contact, and do not touch him. Just leave.
That will teach him a pain signal, and what you will not tolerate.

Quote:
Additionally at what age is a puppy developmentally ready to learn simple commands (sit, stay, etc). If not that, if anyone has any links or ideas to good ‘puppy games/challenges’ that might occupy his mind a bit, it would be great.
About now, is fine.
Hold a little treat in front of his nose, but don't give it to him, and hold it just a little higher than his nose/eyes. he will want it, but realise he has to do something for it. start very slowly, almost imperceptibly, moving it over his head.
his nose should follow, and hopefully he will sit.
Tell him he's a good boy, and give him the treat.
Repeat, and as he gets the message that sitting brings him a reward, add the word "sit" to the movement.
Bring the treat down his chest to make him lie down, and move it further away, little by little, to get him to stay.
Add hand gestures, and this doubles and reinforces the teaching.

Adjust his food intake accordingly, or else you'll end up with a well-behaved, integrated very fat little dog....!
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Old 17-01-2011, 08:28 PM
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Re: Help with dominant puppy

'Dominant' at 7 weeks old - surely you must be joking....?!!

Quite honestly he should still be with his mother and siblings at this age and certainly doesn't need Mr Milan type corrections.

The problems/dominance you have described is perfectly normal puppy behaviour.
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Old 17-01-2011, 08:34 PM
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Re: Help with dominant puppy

I don't believe the dominance theories or hold with CM, but don't want to drag this into a CM argument!

I DO believe that a dog needs a leader - not to 'dominate' it but to instill rules and boundaries within which a dog can feel secure and know what is expected.

It has taken 5 weeks to really curb Kilo's mouthing / excited biting, although the real agony significantly reduced after 3. You have to find what works for your dog - we tried the 'yip' but Kilo interpreted it as a game and it egged him on. We have found that two things work - if it is jumping up and biting, we turn our backs, cross our arms and resume play or the walk when Kilo is calm. If it is play / excitement biting we say 'no bite' in a firm voice and redirect onto a toy. If it occurs again we repeat it and walk to the other side of the baby gate for 20 seconds or so, then calmly come back in and resume whatever we had been doing. It doesn't actually take much being ignored for Kilo to decide that biting turns his humans boring!!

A good book to begin with is 'The Perfect Puppy' by Gwen Bailey. I have also read a huge amount about positive training methods and never punish Kilo - ignore the bad, reward the good is a mantra I have come to live by. It does not mean you are 'soft' - I do not allow Kilo to ignore any command that I give him. It takes a HUGE amount of patience at times such as standing in the rain for 3 minutes on Sunday until Kilo stopped throwing himself about and lay down as I had asked

I started training my pup from the day he came home to us and do countless very short (2-3 minutes) training sessions a day. I try to keep them fun, interesting and enjoyable.

The above advice I must add is from my limited puppy experience, I'm sure others have more and better advice but thought I'd try to help in some way
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Old 17-01-2011, 08:36 PM
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Re: Help with d-direct ominant puppy

He will have missed out on a lot of vital lessons by not being with mum and litter mates. Age 3/7 weeks is canine socialisation. The puppies learn through
play with each other, they learn bite inhibition too, one bites the other in play,if it does it too hard the pup squeals and, if the puppy has bitten he then gets disciplined by mum, to know he has gone too far. 5/7 weeks pups begin to notice other things and begin to form attractions to people. At this stage any threatening sounds,gestures,scolding,punishment or physical force can hamper attrations and interaction with people. Age 7/12 weeks The puppy begins to have brain wave of an adult, and begins to be capable of processing his experiences. Fear Impact 8/11 weeks. Pups have a preprogrammed fearfulness its to stop them basically getting themselves in trouble. Bad experiences at this age can become fixed in the dogs memory. Age 12/16 weeks Pups will try it on and put humans to the test. Games like tug of war can cause them to compete. Age 4 to 8mths flight instinct. usually co-incides with teething, pups will push at boundaries and become more independant,ones that recalled off lead before usually wont now. Age 6 to 14mths Fear of the Unknown A formely curious pup can start to react again to sights sounds and situations again with fear. Scolding or reprimanding will heighten the fear, Petting and soothing will reward his fear and make it worse.

I have outlined what is going on at the moment with his mental and emotional developement and the stages to come. He has missed out on vital lessons and doing things at certain stages can make behaviours worse as you can see.

Usually for nipping and biting you can try the following things,
Give a loud high pitched yelp. (this in his case might not work as explained he missed out the lessons from mum.) If he stops and stays calm,praise and reward.
Fold you arms, turn your back to him and as your doing it say Off. and stay like that ignoring him until he stops. If he stops and remains calm praise and reward the good behaviour.
Re-direct the biting or mouthing on to a toy or chew, if he takes the chew instead and starts to chew then,praise and reward him.
Lastly if all else fails, remove him to his crate or another room,leave him for 5/10 minutes, let him out but ignore him for a minute or two, if he remains calm,praise and reward, If he does it again repeat it and keep repeating until he stops.
For any jumping up and attention seeking behaviour you can also use the folding arms or the time out.

Basically you are giving him nothing for bad behaviour and only attention and praise and treats for good behaviour.
Timing is important, you need to make sure you do things long enough for him to stop and not restart again. You must only treat and praise if he stays calm not straight away.
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Old 17-01-2011, 09:43 PM
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Re: Help with dominant puppy

Thanks for all your kind responses. I certainly am no dog expert and did not even realize this "dominance" issue was a controversial issue. Did not mean to start any debates on that topic . . . I had simply read some books by Mr. Millan and assumed his approach was well accepted. Thanks for setting me straight on that

I'll be sure to try out what you guys said in terms of ignoring/leaving when he acts up instead of trying to use a physical type correction. One additional piece of information - after he was rescued, he was raised in a house with 3 adult dogs and 2 cats, and they apparently got along very well, played together, etc. So he has had the benefit of some socialization with other animals, luckily.
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Old 17-01-2011, 10:06 PM
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Re: Help with dominant puppy

Quote:
Originally Posted by bauer View Post
Thanks for all your kind responses. I certainly am no dog expert and did not even realize this "dominance" issue was a controversial issue. Did not mean to start any debates on that topic . . . I had simply read some books by Mr. Millan and assumed his approach was well accepted. Thanks for setting me straight on that

I'll be sure to try out what you guys said in terms of ignoring/leaving when he acts up instead of trying to use a physical type correction. One additional piece of information - after he was rescued, he was raised in a house with 3 adult dogs and 2 cats, and they apparently got along very well, played together, etc. So he has had the benefit of some socialization with other animals, luckily.
That's what a forum is for: discussion and debate!

Get your puppy to a puppy socialisation class asap so that his canine socialisation can continue. Other dogs, especially mature bitches, are oftentimes the best teachers of self control, manners and bite inhibition to puppies.
I also really recommend that you begin systematic bite inhibition exercises and try not to have to resort to withdrawal everytime. Yelping & brief withdrawal is much more valuable feedback to puppy once used properly. The key to making sure that this doesn't become a cue to turn puppy into a Tasmanian devil is to keep arousal low.
This means only play with puppy for very short bursts of 30 seconds or so. Then have a break and start again. Also make sure puppy has lots and lots of naps and plenty of sleep so that puppy isn't grumpy (just like a kid).

Best of luck, can't wait for pics *hint* *hint*
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Old 18-01-2011, 04:12 PM
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Re: Help with dominant puppy

The above advice is great but I would like to pick out a couple of things NOT to do.

1) When he jumps up, DO NOT push him down as this may easily be interpreted as a game and thus inhibit the learning process.
2) When he mouths you and you squeal, don't take your hand or jump away as this can be seen as a game too (and resembles a animal squealing and running in some deep phenotypic effect from when dogs hunted for their food). Leave your hand there after squealing and wait till he lets go then calmly turn away and isolate him for a short period.

Two small but very important points in my experience.
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Old 18-01-2011, 05:51 PM
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Re: Help with dominant puppy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rottiefan View Post
The above advice is great but I would like to pick out a couple of things NOT to do.

1) When he jumps up, DO NOT push him down as this may easily be interpreted as a game and thus inhibit the learning process.
2) When he mouths you and you squeal, don't take your hand or jump away as this can be seen as a game too (and resembles a animal squealing and running in some deep phenotypic effect from when dogs hunted for their food). Leave your hand there after squealing and wait till he lets go then calmly turn away and isolate him for a short period.

Two small but very important points in my experience.
I agree with both these suggestions as well as what has already been said. I would only add: Watch no more Dog Whisperer and start watching Its Me or the Dog. Dogs do not want to dominate humans; everything you describe is normal puppy behaviour because he hasn't been taught any different. He does not speak your language, it is up to you to teach him what you want from him and you do not do that with constant correction; you do it with constant praise and treats for good behaviour.

If you want to read someone knowledgeable, read Dr Ian Dunbar. Puppy socialisation classes will help tremendously, as long as they don't start acting like CM or talking about pack leaders.
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