I have posted on here a couple of times about my dog Daisy who has dog aggression issues.

Well we have tried many different things but now I am slightly confused about different training methods.

When we first went to training they used a pet corrector spray, if I had known then what I know now then I would have told them not to but I trusted their judgement at the time. I have not let them use it on her since then as I don't like it.

After reading various things and speaking to people, I don't believe that causing her suffering for being aggressive to a dog is going to help her. As she will think that it is the other dog causing her pain wouldn't she??

Which is why I am confused now regarding head collars as they must cause her pain when she lunges at a dog as the last one we used actually cut her face which must have hurt. Will she think that each dog she sees is causing her pain??

Would it be better to just use a normal collar and lead and maybe a harness as extra security? We are currently using a dogmatic which seems better than the others but would it still cause discomfort when she is lunging?

I hope that I have made clear what I mean! Thanks for reading!

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No, the dogmatic does not cause any pain whatsoever, which is why it is so good. The other headcollars are much thinner fabric, so can easily cut in, and they ride up, so they are uncomfortable to a pulling dog. The dogmatic does neither of those things as it is cushioned and designed to stay in one place.

Certainly she may still associate pain from your previous headcollar with other dogs, but that is something she needs to be got over. You need to distract her when you see a dog coming, keep her focus on you, before she has a chance to lunge.

You have said that you cannot hold her on a normal collar and lead, so you are going to have problems if she sees another dog and wants to attack it. What happens if she pulls you along and gets to the other dog anyway? It is not worth it.

Carry on using the dogmatic. I can only tell you what my dog has told me: it is comfy, mum, and I don't want to get it off all the time! He hated the gentle leader and I thought it was because he knew he couldn't go where he liked with it on. I now realise it was probably squashing his nose.

Just one thought: You worry too much!! I think you can overthink things if you are not careful and if the dog appears comfortable and not trying to constantly pull off the headcollar, then it is not uncomfortable.

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I have found diversion tactics are the best. I had to be fully alert all the time. Did not lead to very relaxing walks at times. But as soon as I saw another dog approaching I made sure I had his undivided attention. A favoured treat in my hand. Then I would get between him and the other dog, blocking his view,making my boy sit, and get him to focus on my face, hold the treat at the end of your nose. Talking to him quietly and calmly. Keeping him focused on me, not allowing him to break eye contact. I tried not to break my concentration either. When the other dog was gone loads of praise walk on. Doing this this every single time, eventually he began to relax and this became the way to act around an approaching dog.

Now when I see another dog a very gentle "clam" command, and a soft touch on his ear, from me works. My boy was seriously attacked by another dog which inflicted terrible injuries and that is why he developed problems. So the calmer I am the easier it is for me to keep him calm too. I used a harness and double ended lead. He is strong and I was able to keep him under control using this. I tried various halti's and head collars, these just freaked him out and made his face sore.

I am not in any way an expert but this is what has worked for me. May be it could help you too. Good luck.

The dogmatic has been brilliant until her walk just now when she did her usual mad act and the dogmatic ended up all twisted up round her face and she was pawing at it to get it off.

She tore a mesh type muzzle off her face the other day so now am worried that she is going to get the dogmatic off whilst we are out!

That's interesting that quiet and calm talking and behaviour has worked for you northnsouth... I really think I will give that a try as Daisy does not respond to raised voices, shouting, lead jerking or anything like that. Yet the trainer told me not to talk to her nicely as she will it's a reward for being aggressive!! I think Daisys is fear based aggression also (she is a rescue so we have no idea what has happened).

We have the same problem with head collars making her face sore. The dogmatic is fine until she is jumping about and twisting the lead and pawing at her face!

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Ok, ditch the trainer! If you are not calm, the dog will not be calm, simple as that. Dogs empathise with what you are feeling so if you want calm behaviour, you need to be calm.

You should always use a calm voice when talking to a dog so obviously this is not a reward, it is usual every day stuff and suddenly shouting is a punishment. You could be scaring the life out of her by shouting, you don't know what horrors she has had to put up with.

__________________
http://www.gentle-newfoundland-dogs.com
http://www.royston-pet-care.co.uk



Will always miss you, my little Joshie Woshie xx

If you want real love, buy a dog

If you wouldn't use it on a child, don't use it on a dog

http://pettaxisg8.yolasite.com/
http://www.help-for-learner-drivers.yolasite.com/

Thanks newfiesmum, that is my mind made up... We are not gonna go to training anymore.

I know I should be 'authorative' when telling her to 'leave' etc but when she so much as growls at training they come over and are really quite gruff with her.

I just trusted them as thought they must know what they are talking about but have been on here reading so many things that now I know I don't agree with shouting/aversive methods etc.

I don't shout at her but did at the start when they told me that I should do to make her stop the behavior!

I feel so bad that I have probably made her worse! Still, what's done is done and I will definitely not be using any shouting etc again.

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Don't feel bad, look forward. If you want her to leave something, offer her something better in exchange. When she drops the original thing say drop or leave, whatever word you use. It will take time, but eventually she will just leave on command.

Aversives never help, and they certainly never help an already scared dog. Calmness and leadership is what is needed, together with lots of treats and praise. You'll get there. She is a lucky dog to have found you.

__________________
http://www.gentle-newfoundland-dogs.com
http://www.royston-pet-care.co.uk



Will always miss you, my little Joshie Woshie xx

If you want real love, buy a dog

If you wouldn't use it on a child, don't use it on a dog

http://pettaxisg8.yolasite.com/
http://www.help-for-learner-drivers.yolasite.com/

Thank you

Thanks for all your advice so far!

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If the headcollar or whatever device causes her pain, discomfort etc. then yes it may become part of the association package and affect her attitude toward other dogs.
In the same way that a choke chain, prong collar or spray may - everytime dog turns up something extra unpleasant happens so she will try to work harder to keep those dogs away hence the escalating distance increasing signaling - all the lunging, growling etc.

But, when your dog is like this her arousal level is likely to be very high and her inhibitions lowered so she will take the pain. The problem is that the effects are cumulative and if the aversive is severe enough it can this negative association can occur in one trial.

Now if she actually goes full on crazy dog she is waaaaaaay over threshold and operant learning will not be occuring (the above is classical conditioning and that can occur). So talking to her in whatever voice is not going to be sufficiently relevant for it to be a meaningful consequence of behaviour.

This tells us several things about dealing with aggression and reactivity. First off, for her behaviour to be improved you gotta work below threshold and for her feelings about other dogs to change you need to concentrate on some classical conditioning for a little bit first - feelings first, then behaviour.

Distraction and diversion is helpful for some dogs who can remain below threshold in close proximities with triggers. But it is not teaching, its management. Much more structured systematic sessions will be required as will stepped up management to prevent the dog from rehearsing this behaviour.

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Very good question!
I think with headcollars it varies from dog to dog. I think as newfiesmum said the dogmatic (provided it is fitted properly) definitely should not be painful for the dog.
However some dogs, being individuals, may not find them particularly comfortable (you don't have to be in pain to be uncomfortable after all).

Poor girl- the cut on the face from the headcollar when she lunged doesn't sound fun.
I suspect you could probably do with inspecting her headcollar and watching her behaviour so that you can check that, in a non-stressful, normal walking situation she is comfortable in the headcollar.

I do think that for some dogs, the way that the headcollar holds the head can stress them out- again it depends on the dog.

With the lunging, you really want to aim to set her up to succeed so that she isn't put in a situation where she feels she has to lunge. What are the triggers that result in her lunging? You need to look out for and actively avoid these triggers as well as being aware of her body language and how she communicates that she is not comfortable with a situation. Then if you think she will not cope with a situation- get her out of there (whether that means, crossing the road to avoid a dog that is eyeballing her, walking in the opposite direction). In the initial stages not allowing the previously reinforced reaction to occur and consequently being reinforced further is the key. A further advantage is that she will not be as exposed to stressful situations which will help break the cycle of fear, stress and reactivity etc. This is of course whilst you work on a plan to gradually lower her reactivity threshold (and desensitize her to triggers) whilst counter-conditioning her emotional response to the approach of other dogs.

I hope that helps a bit and best of luck
(P.S. Is that her in your siggy? She is very pretty )

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