Crate for my 21mo old border collie rescue?

spacekadet · #1 (**permalink**) 02-01-2011, 10:33 AM

Hi all,

I'm new to the forums (intro here: Newbie with a border collie rescue) and am currently starting from square one with my 21mo old border collie rescue, "Jay".

Jay has been with us for four months and is making slow but steady progress with basic obedience. However, as I learn more about training, I realize that Jay is in persistant "alpha" mode, even when in the house. I am concerned that things in the home are not optimal for him. We live on a farm with huge floor-to-ceiling windows in the entry way and living room. Both look out towards the fields, where it's not uncommon to find cattle. (I should note that I do not work on the farm and Jay is not a working sheepdog.)

In the last four months, Jay has settled into the following indoor routine:

He spends most time in front of the windows, either sleeping or looking outside, and is and always ready to wake up and bark at a squirrel or cow if one passes his line of site. He goes especially mental when the postman or other person comes to the door.
At night, he sleeps in the bedroom on the floor. We keep the door closed so he can't go look out into the dark scary world and bark at the creatures of the night.
He will sometimes go into the bedroom or office of his own accord (where he can't look out the window) to sleep during the day (somewhere where people aren't around), particularly after we've been training him or he's been on a long walk.

I've been reading a bit about crates and kennels in Barbara Syke's "Understanding Border Collies" and am wondering if I have erred in not giving Jay a crate to make his "den" when he first arrived.

I was wondering if anyone has any experience with this? Would it make sense to introduce Jay to a crate this late on?

I get the distinct impression that Jay currently sees my home as a "shared" space, rather than MY home and he doesn't need to spend all day protecting it at the window. Also, his "quiet time" in the office or bedroom suggests that he would like a quiet place to escape to if he needs it. Like I said, I'm starting from square one, and I know that training Jay means first getting things right in the home. Any advice on this matter would be appreciated!

Many thanks,

Monica

lemmsy · #2 (**permalink**) 02-01-2011, 12:15 PM

Hello and welcome to the forum.
Firstly just thought I'd say I love your avatar- lovely pic

The main thing that jumped out at me from your post was this:

Quote:

However, as I learn more about training, I realize that Jay is in persistant "alpha" mode, even when in the house.

What specific behaviours have given you this impression?
TBH I'm not a fan of dominance/alpha theory- it's a very outdated flawed one and incredibly simplistic.

To save me typing it all out again, here's something I posted ages ago in a debate about dominance, which should explain things a bit:

Quote:

wow- can't believe I missed this one! The great dominance debate!

I'm sure most of you will know that I am certainly not a dominance enthusiast.

To me it seems a very humanized theory. It claims to be based on observations of wolf "packs" in the wild. However these studies took place at a time when there was little or no research on the behaviour of canine/wolf (canis lupus) or domestic canines (canis familiaris) for that matter. The observations have seen been identified as flawed.
So forgetting for a moment that the supposed evidence in favour of dominance/pack theory is flawed: the theory itself seems to essentially claim that dogs live in packs ( of presumably unrelated individuals). In this "pack" there will be one "leader" or "alpha" dog which will be the boss of the lot. At times youngsters may attempt to rise up in the ranks and take this position.
Now those of you that have multi-dog households will certainly have seen evidence of some kind of social hierachy amongst your dogs. For instance one dog may be slightly more strongwilled. Nevertheless to my mind, whilst there is certainly evidence to support these ideas, many will experience incidences (as Caroline recalled) of one dog being more strongwilled/bossy indoors whilst outside another of the dogs "rules the roost". Surely in such a case there is no definate "alpha". To me this suggests an alternative idea; dogs are individuals & that their relationships with other dogs need to be examined on a very individual level. This explains why one dog might in a bossy manner with one dog and then play nicely with another or act very respectfully.
You cannot simply label dogs as "submissive" or "dominant" as many dominance enthusiasts do. It is not that simple. In this sense the dominance approach seems to be a very simplistic and painfully reductionist approach.
All dogs are individuals and should be treated as such. As should every individual dog to dog relationship. The idea of dogs being oportunists to me however does seem like a valid explanation for the way that some dogs will be bossy with others and respectful towards others. They do what they can get away with. They're not asserting their authority but behaving in the way that is accepted in that situation. This will vary from individual to individual.

With regards to the original observations of wolves and other wild canines; scientists have in fact disproved this flawed information. They have found that they basically live in relatively small familial groups- the young leaving once mature to create their own social group. Not too dissimular to humans in some ways.

Now to interspecies dominance. This is debunked time and time again and yet dominance enthusiasts insist on it.
Recent research has argued against the idea and in particular has been related the idea that as dogs are not believed to have some feeling of perception of self- they are therefore unable to want or indeed have any need to assert their authority on their human companions. Again we are humanizing their behaviour when we assume otherwise.

I particularly like this extract from Canine Dominance Revisited by David Appleby:

Quote:

“However, scientists believe that a dogs do not have a sense of self so it could be more accurate to say that it behaves with no inhibition and it is uninhibited behaviour that we interpret as dominant behaviour. Owners often describe a belief that their dog is trying to increase its status over them. This would require that their dog has a capacity for forward planning and to know how its behaviour affects the feelings and thoughts of others, which we believe they are not capable of. So the notion that the dog behaves with lesser or greater inhibition according to who it is interacting with and the value of the resource in question may be a better way of describing what is going on.”

Granted if the dogs needs are not being met you may see what dominance enthusiasts will describe as "dominant behaviour" when in fact the behaviour or situation is misunderstood or has been mismanaged. To take an example- a dog that has recently become overly reactive to strangers is doing so because due to a negative experience she has become increasely anxious about strangers approaching her. A dominance enthusiast would see the aggressive display when visitors come to the house or when they are approach (when she is onlead) outdoors as a dominant dog trying to protect it's status. The reality is a different story. This is an insecure fearful dog who is constantly exposed to situations that are above her threshold. She is incredibly fearful and her reaction indicates this. "If I bark and give it the "big I am" the scary people leave me alone". By not managing situations so that the dog feels the need to defend the house/ herself and her people on walks or indoors from "scary" people the problem is worsened. Hence this is a fear aggressive rather than a dominance case.
Lack of manners and bouncy behaviour is also often interpreted as the dog trying to dominate it's owners. The reality is that the dog has just never been taught HOW to behave!

Quote:

No social science is an exact science and behaviour psychology is certainly NOT an exact science and seeing it as one can only hinder one from broadening their minds and horizons and that is a real shame.
To believe that dog psychology is one interpretation only and nothing else is ridiculously narrow-minded and immensely naive in my opinion.
There is barely no exact science as such in our world which is composed mostly of various interpretations of the same events that people share through various media.
The simple fact that there are still various interpretations of the same behaviour in animal psychology being expressed by various behaviourist of equal value shows that this science, like most others, is still opened to interpretations and fluctuations and it is extremely arrogant to think that one interpretation has to be the right one above all others.

Ah the classic "is psychology a science?" debate
Tricky. Kuhn I believe, suggested that psychology (bog standard/human psychology that is, not specifically animal behaviour) was not a science, rather a pseudoscience due to it's lack of a consistent paradigm. Those of you who have studied psychology will of course know that standard psychology does in fact have several approaches:
- Behavioural- used a lot in animal behaviour- idea of learnt behaviours- hence learning theory, conditioning etc... (incidently- article on learning theory and it's application to animal/dog training:Understanding the Basics- Learning Theory - Clicker Collie Blog

- Cognitive- thought proccesses, rational and irrational thinking etc
- Psychodynamic- the unconscious- Sigmund Freud (id, ego, superego-etc)

- Evolutionary - sometimes overlaps with behavioural but it's the idea of innate, adaptive behaviours etc...

The biological approach is also considered but is not a psychological approach. It is a physiological approach (genetics...).

More info on the "Is psychology a science?" debate here:
(under "What is Science?" Section)
* Is Psychology a Science?

My question is "do we want it to be a science though?". I feel this limits it in many ways. Lack of a single paradigm does not make psychology's separate approaches invalid! What is needed is an individual approach in explaining each case/behaviour taking into account all of the approaches (all of which to my mind are valid- with the exception IMO of some aspects of the psychodynamic approach)
Is this idea applicable to the different approaches to dog training? Probably. Although I question whether outdated and debunked theories should be considered valid.

Anyway that's enough waffling for today

Here's a link to the original thread (makes for very interesting reading

):
terminology in behavior - vics dedicated thread

You mentioned you've been reading Barbara Sykes' book. She does have some good things to say but unfortunately for me she is far too pro-dominance. Before I read it I was fortunate to be warned by my then trainer and fellow collie owner that she was pro-dominance. As with everything- you take what you like, and ignore the rest I guess?

With regards to the issue of the crate:
Does he actually have a bed or a place that he knows he can go to just chill out and not be bothered?
I got the impression from your post that he doesn't currently?

If so it may well be a good idea to introduce somewhere like that. Doesn't have to be a crate (although can be). Could be just a soft, comfy bed?

The key thing is reducing stress in the dog's life and providing them with somewhere they can go to feel "safe" and not be bothered. Ideal for situations such as you describe, when the postie comes or visitors? Especially as he is a rescue and still settling in I would have thought that staying near the windows on the look out for changes in the environment is quite stressful for him and IMO puts too much pressure on him. I would be working on reinforcing relaxation and calm behaviours.

Take a look at the following videos for ideas on crate, "place" training:
YouTube - How to prevent barking at the Doorbell: Training for dogs: My Award Winning APDT Video 2010

YouTube - How to train your dog to be left alone- clicker training

YouTube - dog training- how to purse train / crate train a dog
(the above is for teaching a small dog to go to a purse/small bag, but the same method can be used for a crate?

When you are working on conditioning a positive association with his "space" I would also reward calming signals (licking lips, yawning, eye blinks) and calm behaviours- you want to teach him that his space is a place to go and just chill.

Just make sure you don't go too OTT on training at first, he's only been with you for 4 months and is still very much settling him. Keep training, chilled and fun and allow him space to settle and get on his feet.

tripod · #3 (**permalink**) 02-01-2011, 12:30 PM

Lemmsy's post is fantastic and will be a great guide for you!

Here is some stuff on crate training: Crate for Calm | Pet Central's Pawsitive Dawgs Blog! and alone training Home Alone – calming for separation | Pet Central's Pawsitive Dawgs Blog!
I think the entire blog series will be great for you teaching Jay some self control and how to be calm: Crazy Canines | Pet Central's Pawsitive Dawgs Blog!

Jan 2011 is also APDT Train Your Dog Month and the Pet Central blog is running daily training plans. Its already day 2 but you can catch up here: TYD Month | Pet Central's Pawsitive Dawgs Blog!

I also totally agree about Barbara Sykes especially in relation to aggression and arousal based behaviour, a bit scary imo

Best of luck and well done for working with this guy

OllieBob · #4 (**permalink**) 02-01-2011, 04:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spacekadet

[*]He spends most time in front of the windows, either sleeping or looking outside, and is and always ready to wake up and bark at a squirrel or cow if one passes his line of site. He goes especially mental when the postman or other person comes to the door.[*]At night, he sleeps in the bedroom on the floor. We keep the door closed so he can't go look out into the dark scary world and bark at the creatures of the night.[*]He will sometimes go into the bedroom or office of his own accord (where he can't look out the window) to sleep during the day (somewhere where people aren't around), particularly after we've been training him or he's been on a long walk.

I get the distinct impression that Jay currently sees my home as a "shared" space, rather than MY home and he doesn't need to spend all day protecting it at the window. Also, his "quiet time" in the office or bedroom suggests that he would like a quiet place to escape to if he needs it. Like I said, I'm starting from square one, and I know that training Jay means first getting things right in the home. Any advice on this matter would be appreciated!

Many thanks,

Monica

I wouldn't worry about any of this behaviour at all, all my collies over many many years have all done the same without any problems. Nothing to do with dominance and all to do with the breed. They like 'something' to do most of the time and looking out the window to see what is going on will do nicely thank you. One of my collies knew more of what went on in the village than any of the residents there.

I do introduce all my dogs to the postman with juicy treats so they will now whine to tell me he is coming but don't go ballistic. Any one else I want to know that they are on the property so I dibn't discourage barking but When I say thank you they know to go quiet and are rewarded with a cuddle.
They are bred to be with their shepherd / boss all the time whether out in the field, in the barns/sheds or at home. They are very attached to their people and can sulk if separated from them. So sleeping near to their people is what they like to do and in my book is ok. My father's old collie would lie across his legs to keep him warm when he was having his dinner break if he was in the top fields, it is in their nature to be as close as they can.
All dogs like a bit of time to themselves from time to time. Bobby my present collie will take himself to bed for some peace and quite whenever he wants to.
So all in all I wouldn't bother with a crate as it may may him anxious if not introduced correctly.

Nina_82 · #5 (**permalink**) 02-01-2011, 04:42 PM

Hi,

We have a 20 month old rescue dog. She is quite nervous and anxious and has a bit of separation anxiety too, amongst other issues but that's a different story!

We have had her 4 months and got a crate about two months ago. It has really helped her in my opinion. She had a bed of her own but never used to go in it, now the same bed is in the crate and she goes in it of her own accord a lot.

She was tearing the house up when we used to go out and toileting on the floor, the crate has stopped this and she is so much calmer when we return home.

She takes herself into the crate if the children are being a bit noisy for her and also after a walk or dinner she goes in by herself for a snooze.

I was wary of crates at first as I didn't know much about them and it seemed cruel but after lots of reading up and speaking to people I believe that it has really helped in our case.

spacekadet · #6 (**permalink**) 02-01-2011, 07:55 PM

Hello everyone,

Thanks so much for your thoughtful replies. "Attached" to their owners is right - Jay is right now sleeping under my partner's desk on top of his feet!

Interesting to hear your takes on Barbara Syke's pro-dominance approach. Most of this stuff is pretty new to me, and I didn't realize her philosophy was so notorious! (I'm not totally through the book yet - just got it the other day because I wanted to do as the book's title suggests - Understand Border Collies!). I'll read through the whole book and take from it what I'm comfortable with. The book I've found most useful (or at least fun, gentle and encouraging!) so far is Jean Donaldson's "Train Your Dog Like a Pro."

Reading your responses does make me if I'm worrying over an issue that isn't there. Jay is not destructive, not even if we go out for the day or he misses one of his walks (the worst thing he does is tear up bits of paper or cardboard if he finds them on the floor but I'm pretty sure that's my own fault for being a slob and he doesn't realize he's done anything wrong!). He's never gone to the bathroom inside or gotten into our food (we once mistakenly left a package of mince on the counter while we went to the store and when we got back, it was still there untouched!).

So, perhaps it's not a crate he needs, but some training on calmness... and you're right, 4 months isn't a long time and he's still settling in - I forget that dog time is much slower than humans and I must learn to be patient. =) Then again, if a crate would help with that - it's so hard to know!

Anyway, thanks for your feedback and stories. I'll be going through those links on pawsitivedawgs and working some "calmness" training into his usual repertoire. And I'll sleep on the crate idea for now.

Monica

tripod · #7 (**permalink**) 02-01-2011, 08:14 PM

Jean Donaldson's work is super - her book The Culture Clash will give you real insight into dog behaviour too!

Best of luck

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