How do you classify /tell the difference between the two?

This is a question about a ouple I know who have 2 Patterdale terriers 1 male 1 female and the male is a horror

He was fine as a pup but now he will bark, growl and lunge at people he meets if they stop and talk to the owner .He also iis agressive over food and they wont go near him if he is eating.

The owners are really soft with the dogs and as a result they dont walk properly on their leads and they pull all the time .They live in a flat and the dogs are only walked in town on the lead and have never been let off to run free as they dont listen and have no recal what so ever.

They had a behavior expert downto try and help them and she suggested putting a muzzle on the dog when walking it but as they cant get the muzzle on the dog they cant do that if they do manage to get it on the dog fights to get it off.

The behaviorist did not suggest anything at all about diet or more exercise whih IMHO is what the dog needs more of as I think its agression stems from lack of this and also lack of proper training.

However I am no expert so just wondered what you thought and if you had any advice that would be helpfull as the dog is really nasty and I have experienced this as it bit me badly when I tried to help them put on a muzzle ,you may have read my previous post on this

this is a very worrying post and not one i would like to offer advice on without meeting the owner and the dogs.
however,
in general, anyone who has a dog who displays sudden changes in behaviour like this would be well advised to get the dog checked out at the vet for any physical or neurological problems, to check the protein content of the dog's diet and make sure it is less than 20%, followed up by bringing in a behaviourist who knows what they are talking about.

sadly, there are many "behaviourists" out there who offer advice for huge amounts of money without any formal training or sufficient experience. ask the vet to recommend one.

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All posts are my personal opinions based on the knowledge and experience I have and should not be associated with any organisations I may be a member of



ZACK (1993-2007)
forever in sunshine

Thanke for the advice I too think that they should get the dog cheked out and hey are probably feeding too much and giving too many treats making the dog hyper and agressive.
Lack of exercise and mental stimulation is the other thing ,I mean a quick walk 2/3 times a day IMO is not enough for a terrier.
I have 3 terriers myself and even though they may not get as much exercise as they should, they are allways in and out of the garden finding holes to dig or sniffing out mice and chasing birdies LOL not stuck up in a flat getting frustrated.

will suggest getting the dog checked out at vet ( what would they check for though ?? as never had any experience of behavior problems ) and ask what she is feeding the dog . Still on the feeding side the other dog seems fine behavior wise but still is dissobedient as they dont have a clue about training, their dogs dont like doing this and that !!!! you get the type of owners I mean their dog talks to them and tells them what they like

I worry about them and the dog as he is going to hurt somone bad , he has already got me and I tell you never again will I put my hands near him. I nearly passed out with the pain and had to lie down on the floor to stop from passing out have been left with a numb lump on my finger as a reminder !!

very worrying scenario indeed....
from what you have posted this dog could easily be breaching the dangerous dogs act.
i would suggest a quiet word in their ears (if they will listen). the vet can test for hormone imbalances, deficiencies of all kinds of things can affect a dogs behaviour, and for unknown medical problems or pain that may not be evident to the untrained!
i worry that lack of training and understimulation are playing a huge part here and would advise you to steer well clear of the dog if they are not willing to take action to remedy the situation.

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All posts are my personal opinions based on the knowledge and experience I have and should not be associated with any organisations I may be a member of



ZACK (1993-2007)
forever in sunshine

Have suggested she visit vet and she said that she thinks he might be like that as her bitch is the dominant one I said that should not make him turn agressive . Will see if she takes my advice but as for helping out with his rehabilitation and training no way , as they say once bitten twice shy
Just hope she does not try and breed her bitch with him as that is the reason they got him in the first place

From the information you have given it sounds like he is aggresive all the time? No matter wether its his owners or other people. You didnt mention if he was aggressive to other dogs too? Its always hard on here because you cannot see the dog and usually you dont get the full information. In my experience of fear aggressive dogs it mostly appears as a response to certain situations. Eg a dog might be say frightened of traffic. He cant take flight as hes own a lead so hes reaction is then fight agression. Barking growling snapping. In the main fear aggressive dogs are fine the rest of the time. You also you said he was fine as a pup. If her was a nervous fearful dog temprement wise i would have thought it would have become apparent then as pups go through several fear periods as part of their natural developement. The only thing that would cause fear aggresion would be if something bad happened to him and he became phobic. But again the aggresion doesnt seem confined to any one area of situation. The only conclusion i can come to is its actual aggresion. If he waswhat i call a feisty personality anyway and hasnt been given any boundaries or training that could be the problem. At the end of the day he is a terrier who would need firm fair handling. As i said all i can do is come up with possible suggestions. Any form of aggression is serious and i think they should get profesional help as they are clearly out of their depth. Their vets would have a list of qualified behaviourists.

Yes he is agressive to other dogs and people ,they have to tell folk not to go near him all the time

I also agree with you that it is plain old aggresion as he was not handled properly and is what you would call babied and spoiled just like their other dog but she has a sweet personality even if she does not do as she is told .

Oh they say he is fine with them in the house and will cuddle up to them !!! I dont believe one word of that though !!

I think male dogs are harder to handle and are more chalenging anyway. I take one of mine to training still whos 21mths not because shes a problem i hasten to add. It seems that all the dogs there who are out of control or got behaviour probs of one sort or another seem to be mostly male dogs for some reason. How old was he when he started to kick off? Im betting it was between 6 to 9mths? Thats the usual age. A lot of trainers dont believe in pack behaviour but ive always had sled dogs who are pack dogs you only have to watch how they react to each other. Im betting he was one of the pushier pups in the litter always shoving himself up front and full of confidence.

U cannot just stick it on the dog's face, LB -
it has to be introduced and habituated so that the dog is not 'just' tolerating the muzzle -
they SEE it and come running to shove their own face into the muzzle, freely.

i posted this before -
the video is very helpful - or use the SEARCH box on PF-uk and enter "habituate" and "muzzle".

the book Click to Calm would also help; it can be borrowed from the library, if need be
thru inter-library loan from another library.
CALMATIVES are also helpful IME -
Pet Forums Community - View Single Post - dog body-language - and why it matters so much...

i wish them happy training,
- terry

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terry pride, APDT-Aus, apdt#1827, CVA, TDF
*wolves R wolves, dogs R dogs, + primates R us.*
tmp, sept-2007

I agree with above, whatever the root cause for his aggression, manhandling him to put a muzzle on him will only exacerbate the problem, the bite would have been a last resort, the sad thing here is that now he has bitten and achieved a result with it he is likely to do that again, much more so if for instance the attempt to muzzle him stopped as he became more distressed.

I find some times smaller dogs tend to bite quicker then larger dog because larger dogs' warnings are taken more seriously when say a smaller terrier like a patterdale would be attempted to be restrained, I doubt you would have offered to help if he was say a rottie or a GSD (meaning a bigger, stronger and harder to restrain dog).

I give you an example, my dog has always been very scared at the vets, but done cautiously he would comply with an examination. One day a "in a hurry" vet walked in and attempted to examine his sore leg (he has ED), Ray reacted to this never seen before stranger with a growl, he was ignored so he snarled. This vet walked out came back with a muzzle and slip collar and forced the muzzle on him and corned him and resume the examination... needless to say ever since that Ray has to be muzzled at the vets, it got so bad that I had to put the muzzle even in reception as nobody that worked at the vets could come near us (funnily enough all the customers in the waiting room where fine) Took me months of work and the cooperation of a patient different vet to get him to relax a little, I doubt a vet will ever be able to examine his legs without sedation though.

It takes one wrong action to seriously alter a dog's personality and months of work to go back to where he was before.

Before meeting this vet Ray was a nervous dog anyway, but would have always chosen to give berth to a worry, now he is more likely to freeze and face it. It was not in him to react aggressively to a human at all, unfortunately he has been taught that now. The work is never over when you have a nervous dog, but it helps to be there to prevent them to feel worried and be very aware of their body language. Sounds like the owners of this dog are completely oblivious.

Whatever made them choose a patterdale when all they could offer was a quick walk in town here and there is beyond me... If they see to his needs more maybe the dog would find more of a purpose in life and some rehabilitation take ground, from the sound of his people I doubt very much this dog has much hope, how sad!

You might hate me for this, but you are probably aware that, although you had the best of intentions, you have actually caused more harm then good. This dog needs to be handled with a lot of cautiousness by an experienced behaviourist able to go to his pace and establish a trust with the dog first. The type of "professional" they decide to use will determine the results the dog will achieve, but it is really down to them to understand him first.

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