this just arrived in my in-box, from *ian* [or his secretary, mail-bot or gofer ]
*ian, dear -
i don't care if U repeat binary consequences till U wear Ur tongue to a nubbin + Ur voice fails;
not being rewarded or having a desired thing - like me! Taken-Away, is generally plenty.

for many dogs who are savvy about rewards, even an NRM - No Reward Marker - can be quashing.
i want avid participation, i want a dog who WANTS to succeed and is working eagerly to do so.
i don't want to throw cold-water on my student's ardor.

i'm willing to tell a dog who *knows* full-well what is required in a given scenario, that i am not happy
with their noncompliance - but telling a thoroughly-proofed dog, "well, U blew that one!" is one thing -
telling a dog who is uncertain what we are aiming for, or not sure that it's the same-behavior
in this new-place, "oops! wrong answer..." might have them discouraged-enuf to quit.

if i see a simple mistake - a dog who SITS when i cue "down" - i will use an instructive reprimand,
by flashing my WAIT cue [closed hand,index-finger vertical, elbow bent] and REPEAT the "down" cue.
then i wait, to see if the dog realizes the error; otherwise, i rarely use an instructive reprimand,
especially with a new-learner or not-yet-proofed dog; i want them confident, unafraid to try + maybe err -

a mistake is when they learn, and when -I- learn: did i confuse my student? rush the process?
tag the label on too-early and confabulate the cue? raise criteria too quickly? was my timing poor?
did i reward the dog with what that dog wants - or what i thought the dog -should- want?
did i add distractions before the dog knew the behavior, or was i training something other than
what i meant to teach? if we hit a glitch, i want to be sure whose is the mistake, not assume it's the dog.

and of course - by the time i am sure whose error it was, the time to punish is long-past.
so i'll skip the punishment, thanks - i'll let my fellow-trainers with the choke-chains, prong-collars,
shock-collars, skinny slip-leads, and martinet manners have all the punishment glory.
cheers,
--- terry

__________________
terry pride, APDT-Aus, apdt#1827, CVA, TDF
*wolves R wolves, dogs R dogs, + primates R us.*
tmp, sept-2007

well that saved me a lot of typing....well said Terry!

__________________
All posts are my personal opinions based on the knowledge and experience I have and should not be associated with any organisations I may be a member of



ZACK (1993-2007)
forever in sunshine

thanks, LNM - but i'm worried about *ian, frankly.

i think *ian* is hanging-out Way, Way too-much with *nicholas dodman* -
they are touring + offering double-ticket seminars this year.


*dodman thinks shock-collars are OK, he went to see someone proof with a shock-collar
and he has concluded it's a great idea. i think this is a terrifying idea -

those gundog-trainers who are skilled, attentive + conscientious, can use shock to proof -
but that's not all gundog-trainers, and there are extenuating circs:
* the behaviors are deeply instinctive and powerfully self-rewarding
hunting, retrieving, marking a falling target, and so on.
* the dogs =Want= to do this activity intensely
many retrievers will fetch a ball till the thrower's arm is aching;
removing the chance to score is among the worst punishments possible.
* the dogs are relatively insensitive to pain
retrievers are full-on, gung-ho, full-body contact breeds: Labs, Chessies, etc.
they are athletic vs graceful, impulsive vs reserved, exuberant vs cautious;
crashing thru brush, launching into surf or plunging in cold-water are thrills to them.

conversely, using shock to punish poor performance in ordinary obedience:
* there is no 'instinct' to heel, come when called, drop on the verbal cue Down, etc.

* there is no deep desire to do any of these things: hop off the sofa? Why?
walk at my heel? How come? what's in it for me? is a legitimate question.

* pain perception varies enormously over breeds, as well as individuals -
some dogs are traumatized by even low-level shock; fallout can manifest up to Two Years
after any application of shock has ceased, and the single most-common side-effect is aggression.


** last but not least -
training with shock is utterly + totally different from proofing with shock.
the former is a naive dog or novice learner; the latter is well-trained and fluent in the behavior.
the former has no idea what we're doing or aiming for, and certainly has no reward-history associated;
this novice will be easily discouraged and likely to shut-down.

gundog-trainers can train -without- shock, too - it's not mandatory;
it's convenient, it makes punishment possible from a half-mile away.
but they trained great hunters BEFORE shock-collars were invented;
i am glad to see a movement in gundogs -Away From- shock as a proofing tool.

seeing shock-collars move into the general-dog popn and from gundog to obedience
very much worries me; i have seen pet-dog owners zap a dog 15-seconds after they called the dog,
and the off-leash dog is not even in eyesight yet. i asked what they were punishing -
and they could not tell me; i said, "that's the point - U cannot punish what U cannot see."
for all that handler knew, they punished the dog while galloping uphill toward them,
or the dog cannot locate the source of the sound + is hunting for their return path.

shock-collars are to training as microwaves are to cooking -
U can ruin something so efficiently, in one-thousandth the time.

i don't want *ian to catch this particular virus; and i don't want applied punishment
to taint my training, worry my dogs, take the joy from training, corrode the dogs' trust.


about the worst thing i do in training is a time-out: loss of opportunity, negative punishment:
i TAKE-AWAY what the dog wants, momentarily - then they get another chance to try.
nobody gets quashed; no-one shuts down, freezes or quits; no dog is overfaced and overwhelmed.
when the opportunity comes back, the dogs switch on! they are eager + happy + confident.
i want to keep it that way; i hope that *ian does, too. despite *dodman

all my best,
- terry

__________________
terry pride, APDT-Aus, apdt#1827, CVA, TDF
*wolves R wolves, dogs R dogs, + primates R us.*
tmp, sept-2007