The above taken directly from that link, written by Dr Ian Dunbar but I could have written that myself! He knows his subject so well!

this is one of my fave bits - and it's also hopeful:
domestic dogs are like ethology with training-wheels - U don't have to videorecord them
and then play it back frame by frame, to see what they are saying or feeling. that's a good thing
it means that with just good, ordinary human-attention + perception, we can understand our dogs.
they don't squeak like bats, flash microsignals like monkeys, live at accelerated speed like birds,
brutalize one another like male-baboons, or sexually-segregate like elephants.

the bummer is, dogs get us better than we get dogs.
the hope is, we will make more of an effort to grok dogs.

What I wanna know is, why is Dunbar insulting Chimps?

LOL Rob

What I think he means there is that it is misguided to assume that humans behave the same way as chimps although I myself have often made such assumptions about the behaviour of adolescents coming out of our local school, whooping and hooting (as well as effing and blinding) whilst swinging their bags round and roaring. They reckon some of our behaviour is very similar to that of the Bonobos, a sub species of chimp - YouTube - Human characteristics of chimps - BBC wildlife However, that does not mean we ARE chimps though sometimes..........

To liken a dog to a wolf is the same as saying a Lion is a Tiger or that a Roe Deer is a Red Deer. Similar animals yes, but quite different in their ways of thinking and behavioural characteristics.

I don't want to seem pedantic but it's more like comparing a pot bellied pig and a wild boar. Dogs & Wolves interbreed viably so they are the same species and DNA has conclusively shown the orgins of dogs are indeed Asiatic wolves, and without any jackal or other influence speculated on in past.

I quite agree, what matters though is how dogs (or indeed wolf hybrids) behave in domesticated settings, any insights from study of wild & feral behaviour need careful evaluation.

i don't think human-behavior resembles bonobo-behavior; i wish it did.

bonobos solve conflicts and appease, apologize, and reconcile using sex...
between adults, same sex, opp-sex, and even teen or pre-teens.
may i hasten to add, this is mostly 'gestural' - like air-humping in dogs, NOT full-blown sex.
it is like the momentary mounting of excited pups who have just met: an intention movement,
not actual mating.

bonobos are peaceful, affiliative, tolerate child-behavior and look-out for other's infants + young,
they do not fight violently over territory or food - males shout, the females start making overtures,
and they eat side by side while the males are still yelling at each other, but there's no blood n gore.

i think humans, with our insistence on doing something Right Now in a crisis, even when it may be
the WORST possible thing-to-do, we cannot wait - and in our strong species-tendency to shout, throw things,
bang stuff, stomp, and otherwise display angrily, we much more resemble Pan troglodytes -
the 'common chimpanzee', notorious for poor impulse-control, manipulation, temper-tantrums, border-wars, etc.


here is another form of reconciliation behavior in another species -
Science Friday Newsbriefs: After A Fight, Rooks Go To Their Mates For A Beak Rub

Yep, let's face it, if the other species had a vote, between the survival of the Bonobos and us, we'd be exterminated.

Sorry Rob - I know the ability to successfully reproduce is widely accepted as the criteria but I just don't think that two animals with such stark differences can really be considered the same species.

There are substantial differences in both physiology / anatomy and behaviour. For example, wolves have considerably larger heads relative to body size than dogs. They have much more powerful jaws and significantly longer teeth. Their brains are much larger. Wolves come into season only once per year, they live in family groups (parents and offspring), and pups are raised jointly by both parents, as well as older siblings. Dogs on the other hand have two seasons per year, raise young as single-mums, and broadly speaking do NOT form packs or cohesive family units. Dogs have been selectively bred for thousands of generations to accept humans, to live and work with humans, and for traits such as working ability and appearence. Wolves, subject to the laws of evolution and natural selection are far more shy than dogs, with a natural tendency to avoid humans. I could go on but I won't.....

The point I'm trying to make is that wolves and dogs are two very different animals, living very different lives. Trying to understand dogs by watching wolves is simply not going to be accurate, because contrary to popular belief they are NOT the same, and do NOt behave the same.
If they were / did then every feral born dog would revert to being a wolf; and captive bred wolves would behave the same as domestic dogs. They don't.

While all your points are completely valid & I do agree with all of them, the fact is that the scientific definition of a species is that the animals can successfully breed. It's not a matter of opinion! This shouldn't have an effect on the fact that you clearly cannot generalise between dogs & wolves.

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