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  #51 (permalink)  
Old 01-06-2011, 11:03 AM
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Re: Dunbar: why pack-theory just complicates things

Two brief points:

1. Out of interest, have there been any studies of feral dog "packs?"
In other words, given no human input, will domestic dogs revert to more wolflike behaviours? Do domestic dogs, which by and large live in ones and two, actually need to exhibit pack behaviour? The prison example referred to above seems to show that humans can revert to this type of behaviour in certain circumstances. Does the same hold true for domestic canines?

2. Not all domestic dog breeds are the same. My breed - the Siberian Husky, although it is genetically closer to the Jack Russel than to the wolf, does, because of its history, exhibit definite "pack" behaviour - not "wolfpack" behaviour, but "Sibepack" behaviour!

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  #52 (permalink)  
Old 01-06-2011, 11:17 AM
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Smile Re: Dunbar: why pack-theory just complicates things

Raindog, I do believe there have been but my memory is so rubbbish that I cannot even recall who did it. I dare say someone will be along in a bit to add the releveant links to those studies but in the meantime I have found this - LINK

There's an interesting video clip on that page which is worth listening to.
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Old 01-06-2011, 04:44 PM
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Re: Dunbar: why pack-theory just complicates things

Quote:
Originally Posted by Colette View Post
There are substantial differences in both physiology / anatomy and behaviour. For example, wolves have considerably larger heads relative to body size than dogs. They have much more powerful jaws and significantly longer teeth. Their brains are much larger. .
This is partially false, at least in terms of size. While it is "truthier" for the Grey, when compared to what is believed the true ancestor of dogs, the Asian wolves. The size differences are not as marked given that the Asian is smaller than the Grey (not the imaginary aliens)


The other stuff I agree with.
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Old 01-06-2011, 04:46 PM
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Re: Dunbar: why pack-theory just complicates things

Quote:
Originally Posted by raindog View Post
Two brief points:

1. Out of interest, have there been any studies of feral dog "packs?"
In other words, given no human input, will domestic dogs revert to more wolflike behaviours? Do domestic dogs, which by and large live in ones and two, actually need to exhibit pack behaviour? The prison example referred to above seems to show that humans can revert to this type of behaviour in certain circumstances. Does the same hold true for domestic canines?

2. Not all domestic dog breeds are the same. My breed - the Siberian Husky, although it is genetically closer to the Jack Russel than to the wolf, does, because of its history, exhibit definite "pack" behaviour - not "wolfpack" behaviour, but "Sibepack" behaviour!

Mick
yes, several studies, start with this one

Comparative social ecology of feral dogs and wolves
L. BOITANI and P. CIUCCI
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Old 01-06-2011, 04:51 PM
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Re: Dunbar: why pack-theory just complicates things

Quote:
Originally Posted by Corinthian View Post
This is partially false, at least in terms of size. While it is "truthier" for the Grey, when compared to what is believed the true ancestor of dogs, the Asian wolves. The size differences are not as marked given that the Asian is smaller than the Grey (not the imaginary aliens)


The other stuff I agree with.
Somewhere there is an article/study outlining the size of dogs brains & jaws and the relationship to the size of brain and jaws of the wolf. I forget the actual context, but it was something along the lines of the size of the jaw relevant to the size of the head and the measurements taken were similar in both species (lupis and familiaris) I'm sure someone will enlighten us
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Old 01-06-2011, 05:15 PM
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Lightbulb studies of free-roaming village [owned] & feral dogs? LOADS

Quote:
Originally Posted by raindog View Post
1. Out of interest, have there been any studies of feral dog "packs?"
IOW, given no human input, will domestic dogs revert to more wolflike behaviours?
1 - Yes, many: the Coppingers' was probably the most-extensive & most-recent, watching dog-behavior
on 5 of the 7 continents; Spain, Portugal, Italy, Greece, India, African cities & villages, Brazil, etc.
city-strays, city-ferals, village dogs [owned but free-roaming], feral dogs with no owners but sometimes
with 'sponsors' who feed a specific dog[s] - a bartender, hotel-keeper, cook, housewife, fisherman...
feral dogs roaming the countryside, too.

what they found was that individual dogs exhibited territoriality, choosing an area where they roamed in patterns,
eating / scavenging here, resting there, sleeping under/behind this wall, often in shade at this place ~ 2-pm,
and so on.

they also congregated around common interests - new-trash tossed, a dump, water, bitches in heat.
they would quarrel or even fight over scarce things: meat [rare] vs spoiled bread [common], estrous bitches,
meaty bones... but rarely even postured over plentiful items [all sorts of trash at a dump].

they did not display active submission / appeasement to other dogs whom they had recently fought...
which would be one sign of a hierarchy, even a short-lived one.

they had buddies - a dog they'd rest with, or dogs they'd walk with... but there was no cohesive group travel
[a hallmark of a pack: purposeful movement together, toward a common goal] EXCEPT in parts of western Europe,
where they theorized that local wolves, who will eat dogs, had taught them there's safety in numbers.
once they got where they were going [the dump, dumpster, water...], they dispersed, & ate or hunted alone.

Quote:
Originally Posted by raindog View Post
[2] Do domestic dogs, which by and large live in ones & twos, actually need to exhibit pack behaviour?
very rarely - a pack of big-game hunting dogs are unified in the scent & chase & bring to bay parts,
but no DOG decides who or what we hunt; a human makes that choice, as well as Where & When we hunt,
if we're the dogs.

dogs WILL often defend their buddies from an attacker, just as many dogs will defend their humans from attack;
but i see this as a result of bonding [attachment, affection], not 'pack' behavior. bitches & pups are family,
& unlike wolves, fox, jackals, coyote, hyena, et al, Domestic Dogs Have No Pair Bond - the basis of a pack,
just as the human family of parents & children are the basis of extended family or society.

bitches are left to pregnancy, whelping, feeding, rearing & defending their pups on their own -
male dogs do not ward & feed their pregnant mate while she digs a den, feed her when she's heavy in whelp
& can't hunt for herself, feed her while she nurses neonates, feed HIS PUPS when they begin eating solids...
once she's out of estrus, they lose all interest.

pups out of the nest may be played with, at 6-WO and up, but they don't upchuck their own meals
to hungry pups who beg regularly - which even juvenile wolves will do, who are helping their parents rear
the next litter[s]. juvie-wolves will stay with their parents till they're 2 or 3-YO; they learn to hunt,
help feed younger sibs or half-sibs, watch the den, mind the kids while the breeding pair hunt, & so on.

young-pups of 12-WO or under are objects of utter fascination for wolves of all ages; they readily adopt them,
and orphans rarely die - a nearby pack will often remove them from a den & carry them to their own area,
rearing them just as they would their own pups. this has been repeatedly documented.

domestic-dog bitches with young litters will adopt young mammals that are not even their own species -
and domestic-dog bitches with experience rearing litters can sometimes be induced to adopt, lactate, rear
& live with other dams' pups, or raise tiger-cubs or cheetahs or whatever.
but not 'every' bitch is willing to adopt non-dog infants; most will adopt a pup not their own, but the stranger
must be properly introduced into her own litter, wiped with some scent from herself & her pups, to make this
a likely proposition - if U just plunk a stranger in among the rest, she may simply nose the baby aside,
to chill & die.

do domestic-dogs NEED to operate as packs?
no - not outside of hunting scenarios, where a group of dogs is expected to co-operate in finding game
and bringing the hunter to it. So dogs' time spent in pack-activities is very limited, and when the hunt ends,
the pack disintegrates into individual dogs, with their individual buddies, as well as disliked or enemies.
just like us, not all dogs get along with all dogs; they have likes, dislikes & preferences.

dogs in one household can be more usefully thought of as adopted kids, who are often unrelated
but nonetheless make up a family; just as in blended human families, the kids may not all get along,
but all are loved to one degree or another by their adoptive parents & are provided for.
they accommodate one another's preferences & will often defer to a k9-housemate over those things
which are more-precious to her or him than to themselves.

Deference is IMO & IME more important in day-to-day dog relations than 'dominance'.
dogs defer often & readily over space [narrow openings], preferred toys, access to humans
for attention, and so on.


i frequently reward my 'audience' dog[s] just for being polite observers while i am training another dog,
generally about once for every 3 to 5 treats / toy-games / etc, awarded to the student-dog, for several reasons:
it gets them to pay attention & learn, be mindful of their manners, & they also *learn* that when another dog
gets a reward, there is no reason to struggle for one of my own - 'My turn is Next!'
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Old 01-06-2011, 06:35 PM
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Arrow the Coppingers' book: title & quote

Dogs: A Startling New Understanding of Canine Origin, Behavior & Evolution by Ray & Lorna Coppinger -

Quote:
"Today, the popular dog-press seems to feel that if dogs descended from wolves,
they would have wolf qualities. But the natural selection model points out that the wolf qualities
are severely modified. Dogs do not think like wolves, nor do they behave like them."
the process of domestication & evolution toward domestication, while the proto-dogs grew more tolerant
of human presence & less flighty, plus the later deliberate human selection for traits that we wanted -
by eating pups who were colors or patterns we did not want, or who were too snappish or guarded game
after we'd killed it, or however we 'weeded' the proto-dogs, later became selection for working dogs
to herd, guard or hunt, or as household companions - there were toy-sized dogs in classic Egypt & Rome,
& among the Aztecs when the Spanish invaded.

later in the more-modern period, not only working traits but an identifiable common appearance became
a breeding aim, so color, coat, size, etc, became more uniform within breeds.

Cavalier King-Charles Spaniels are among the least-wolflike breeds in behavior, showing a very few
of the original rich body-language grammar of wolves, remaining puppylike in many ways more than
the average dog-breeds, such as sleeping touching one another like puppies, even tho there is plenty of room.

most adult-dogs will sleep separate, altho play & rest may be group activities - they will sleep touching
only if it's cold to conserve body-heat, or if the soft comfy space is limited, like a shared bed or sofa.
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