Article in the Telegraph -
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/peterwedderburn/100050277/is-it-really-cruel-to-perform-an-alpha-roll-on-your-dog/

Quote - 'Alpha rolls are part of an outdated theory of dog behaviour that’s based on discredited science. There are far better ways to train dogs.
So what’s the answer for the typical owner of a badly behaved dog? Enlist the help of a good, experienced dog trainer or behavioural expert. Preferably one who doesn’t insist on the importance of the pack hierarchy.'

Yeah, right on!!!! More common sense like this please!

My dog much prefers Sausage rolls
(as part of a calorie controlled diet of course).

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Have read the thread! but assuming you mean pinning the dog down! if so I say yes it is!!
But that said I will (as I just said on another thread) apply gently pressure to the shoulder or a young dog!
DT

an alpha roll performed incorrectly can also cause unecessary mental anquish and physical damage to a dog!. it is nothing short of bullying the dog into submission (IMO).

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All posts are my personal opinions based on the knowledge and experience I have and should not be associated with any organisations I may be a member of



ZACK (1993-2007)
forever in sunshine

hey, caro! :--)

here is the article he was opining from -
What IS the right way to train your dog? | Mail Online

there is a hyperlink in *peter's blog for it -
*lez says,
the Animal Behaviour and Training Council - with support of such welfare groups as the RSPCA and the Dogs Trust -
is propagating the myth that our dogs are equal to us and that we shouldn't be saying 'no' to them.
In my view, this is the start of a slippery slope towards badly behaved and potentially dangerous dogs. Are there any
circumstances in which I'd say dogs are our equals? absolutely not. Humans must be in charge.
They have got to be the authority figure in the household. If they fail to do so, their dogs may become unruly, nervy,
anxious and, in the worst cases, aggressive.

A study by the University of Cordoba, Spain, concluded that the factors that had the greatest influence on dog aggression were those linked with the owner.
These included how spoiled the dog was - whether it was given food from family meals, allowed to lie on the furniture, sleep on the bed and so on - and whether any basic training had been done.
Statistically the most important factor, however, was the discipline used. One of the highly significant factors in territorial aggression was lack of discipline from the owner.

For those of us directly involved in dog behaviour, it is reassuring that there is scientific evidence to back up what we all know to be innately true; namely, that dogs need leaders and those leaders need to exercise appropriate control.
Dogs are pack animals; they are programmed to follow a strong leader and, like children, they need a figure of authority to provide rules, discipline and boundaries, as well as praise.

A new wave of trainers advocates that good behaviour should only be achieved through the use of food rewards, or 'positive reinforcement' as they're incorrectly labelling it. I do not agree.
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that Univ of Cordoba study is a train-wreck; it includes references as far back as the 1970s, studies on behavior long-superseded by more accurate and less-tainted research.

=======================
*celia says,
...nowadays, some TV programmes and dog books will tell you that you have to be your dog's pack leader, by punishing it,
pinning it to the ground in what's known as an 'alpha roll', using a choke collar, or a prong collar with inward spikes,
or even giving it electric shocks.
To me, some of these methods are torture - plain and simple. Of course, dogs can be ruled by fear and electric-shock
torture, just as humans can be. But what normal person wants to be a Saddam Hussein to their best friend?

I'm sure that Cesar Millan, the dog whisperer, means well. But I'm extremely worried about his methods -
as are animal welfare and training groups, including the RSPCA and The Dogs Trust.
When he toured the UK earlier this year, they made it clear that some of his techniques were ' unacceptable from a welfare perspective'.

So, what's wrong with the idea that dog owners have to become pack leaders? aren't dogs like wolves -
and if they don't obey you, aren't they trying to take over as leader?
No and no. The whole idea is just plain wrong and when practised by the wrong kind of dog owner it can legitimise cruelty.

[photo]
caption:
Promoting discipline: Cesar Millan, known as the Dog Whisperer, is credited with turning disobedient and aggressive animals into perfect pets

The wolf pack theory came from research by German zoologists, one of them Erik Zimen, who claimed that
wolves fought their way to the top in order to be the alpha.
But Zimen's big mistake was to study captive wolves. He believed that his captive wolves were behaving like wild ones,
when in fact they were showing abnormal behaviour due to being imprisoned. Scientists now say the wolf pack is more like a family and there are no alpha leaders.
Older wolves behave like parents, not like bloodthirsty dictators. They don't rule by savagery and fear - they co-operate and care for their young.

More importantly, it's stupid to try to explain dog behaviour by talking about wolves.
Your Schnauzer or Labrador might share a lot of DNA with a wolf, but we share a lot of DNA with chimpanzees
and we don't behave like chimps. Dogs are a different species altogether.

For instance, stray dogs do not revert to being wolves.
If for some reason you put a group of dogs on an uninhabited island with a lot of prey animals like caribou,
the dogs wouldn't turn into hunters - they'd die of starvation.

Pack theory and dominance theory survive because they flatter dog owners.

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i agree with *celia...
cheers,
- terry

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terry pride, APDT-Aus, apdt#1827, CVA, TDF
*wolves R wolves, dogs R dogs, + primates R us.*
tmp, sept-2007

yes imo not only is it cruel its also ridiculous!

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"If the wolf is to survive, the wolf haters must be outnumbered. They must be outshouted, out financed, and out voted. Their narrow and biased attitude must be outweighed by an attitude based on an understanding of natural processes."
L David Mech

We have doomed the Wolf not for what it is, but for what we have deliberately and mistakenly perceived it to be..the mythologized epitome of a savage, ruthless killer..which is, in reality no more than a reflexed images of ourself." -Farley Mowat

I didn't realise there was a 'correct' way to perform one

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Anne, owned by Rufus & Tripod

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"I've seen a look in dogs' eyes, a quickly vanishing look of amazed contempt, and I am convinced that basically dogs think humans are nuts." - John Steinbeck

"If you don't want your dog to bite you, don't be an a**hole to him." ~ Dr. Ian Dunbar

Does it count when you roll them over during play time and tickle their tummy so much they wriggle and try to eat your hand?!

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Well I am the leader of my pack! But I lead as a true leader should, without bullying and unneccessary violence. Hence alpha rolls are not in my job description. I lead through example, through fairness and consistency. My dogs have their own hierachy between them which I do not interfere with. But my position never changes and they like it that way. I provide food, water and shelter as well as love, exercise and affection and I keep them safe from harm. True leaders do not physically bully and among dogs, those who do tend not to last long.

ANYONE can call themselves an expert. CM himself started off by sweeping up in a dog grooming parlour and then showed his worth by not being afraid to manhandle dogs into submission that did not want to be groomed or clipped etc. One thing led to another and suddenly he was a dog 'psychologist'. The rest is sadly history as he ressurrected 'Ye Anciente Dominance Theory' which more forward thinking trainers and behaviourists had been carefully settling into the archives where it belongs.

There needs to be regulation of the dog behaviour 'industry' and I have heard tell that it is in the pipelines though a long way off yet no doubt. In the meantime there will be countless 'whisperers' and 'listeneners' setting up, charging a lot of money for very little working knowledge padded out with a little 'experience'.

sorry....probably a bad choice of word!
what i meant was that an inexperienced handler trying to copy the technique seen on TV could potentially put the dog at risk of neck, shoulder, brain, or leg injury!

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All posts are my personal opinions based on the knowledge and experience I have and should not be associated with any organisations I may be a member of



ZACK (1993-2007)
forever in sunshine